Decolonizing Leadership and Embracing Belonging with Shoshana Allice

In episode 151 of Empowered and Embodied, Kim and Louise dive into the powerful intersections of leadership, identity, and belonging with their incredible guest, Shoshana Allice. Shoshana is a neuro-inclusive leadership coach and consultant, committed to decolonizing leadership and fostering spaces where true belonging—not just fitting in—is possible.

We explore the difference between belonging and fitting in, the armor we carry through life, and how our deeply ingrained systems shape the way we move through the world. Shoshana shares her journey of unlearning, embracing curiosity, and making space for courageous conversations that challenge power structures and systemic inequities.

Consider this an invitation to ask hard questions, sit in the discomfort of growth, and to recognize that getting it “wrong” is part of the process. From recognizing our internalized beliefs to reimagining leadership in a way that centers humanity, this episode is a powerful call to action: to show up, stay curious, and create spaces of true connection. This is one of those conversations that leaves you feeling full—of ideas, questions, and a renewed sense of purpose. 

"If you want to start decolonizing your leadership, start with curiosity and humility. Be willing to unlearn what you think you know." - Shoshana Allice

Key Takeaways:

• Belonging is not about changing who you are to fit in—it’s about being fully accepted as you are.
• Decolonizing leadership means questioning the systems we operate in and unlearning the ways we uphold them.
• Armor has served us, but softening it allows for deeper connection and authenticity.
• Curiosity and humility are the keys to unlearning and moving toward collective liberation.
• Rest is resistance—shoutout to Tricia Hersey and The Nap Ministry!

Key Moments: 

00:00 – Welcome, guest introduction & celebrations

07:28 – The power of asking questions

11:33 – Struggles and self-judgment

14:34 – Decolonizing leadership

19:59 – The importance of land acknowledgments

23:28 – Unlearning leadership assumptions

29:58 – The weight of systemic armor

34:36 – Privilege, belonging, and identity

41:22 – The illusion of fitting in

46:50 – Learning from younger generations

52:02 – Final reflections and takeaways

Resources Mentioned:

📖 Rest as Resistance by Tricia Hersey

🎥 This is Water

Connect with Shoshana:

Website: www.decolonizingleadership.com

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shoshanaallice/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WorkshopsThatDontSuck/

Are you ready to reclaim your power and live (and work) with more ease? Discover your unique blueprint to do just that with Kim's Strengthscape Self-Mastery Profile.

Looking for something different and feeling lost about where to start? Rediscover your purpose and how to craft a career that makes sense. Check out Louise's Midlife Career Mastery program.

Transcript

The Empowered & Embodied Show

Episode Title: Decolonizing Leadership and Embracing Belonging
Hosts: Kim Romain & Louise Neil
Guest: Shoshana Allice (she/they)
Published: March 18, 2025

Kim Romain (00:03):
Well, hello, hello, hello, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of The Empowered & Embodied Show. I’m one of your co-hosts, Kim Romain—joined, as always, by my other co-host...

Louise Neil (00:14):
That’s me, Louise Neil! Sometimes I say Louise, sometimes Louise Neil... I never quite know. Folks might know me—but maybe this is your first time here and you don’t. Either way, welcome. And today, we have a really great guest joining us.

Kim Romain (00:19):
(Laughs) Did you forget your last name?

Shoshana Allice (00:36):
Thank you for having me. I'm Shoshana—and like you, sometimes I include my last name, and sometimes I feel like my first name is long enough on its own.

Kim Romain (00:46):
I love that. My daughter’s middle name is Rose, which is Shoshana in Hebrew, and she’s always wanted to go by Shoshana. I told her, “That can totally be your stage name.” It’s a beautiful name. Her first name is Isadora. I mean—come on!

Shoshana Allice (01:07):
What a beautiful pairing of names. You did right by your kiddo.

Kim Romain (01:13):
Thanks. Though Isadora Shoshana started to feel like a lot, so we went with Rose.

Shoshana Allice (01:18):
I get that. My middle name is Leia—spelled L-E-A. My parents said it might’ve been Leah, but at some point, I think I rebranded it in my own head—probably right around the time Star Wars hit. Cinnamon bun hair and all.

Kim Romain (01:45):
(Laughs) The cinnamon buns! I get it. And you know what? It’s your identity—if you want to go by Leia, do it.

Louise Neil (01:55):
You do you.

Kim Romain (01:57):
Exactly. I dropped my last name for a while—not Romain, that’s my married name, and I love it now. But after my first divorce, I didn’t want to go back to my maiden name. That felt controlling, so I used my middle name—Kimberly Rae. That became my last name for a while.

Alright, I digress. Let’s pop into what we always start our episodes with... what are we celebrating? Beyond our names—what are we celebrating?

Shoshana Allice (02:53):
Are you asking me to go first?

Kim Romain (02:55):
You totally can if you’d like!

Shoshana Allice (03:05):
I'm really glad I listen to the show enough to know you open with this—it gave me a chance to prepare. And honestly, it was a little confronting! Like, “Oh... what am I celebrating?” It reminded me I need to make this a more regular practice.

So, what I’m celebrating today... one thing is that I live in a city where my wife and I can hold hands on the street. We just planned a weekend getaway and I wasn’t worried about our safety. That’s a big deal.

And—maybe smaller but just as big—I made it to the pool three times in the past two weeks. That kind of self-care has been a real struggle for me. So I’m celebrating that progress.

Kim Romain (04:30):
Yeah. I feel both of those so deeply. Thank you for sharing them with us.

Louise Neil (04:34):
It’s a practice, right? Taking that moment to pause—to get out of our heads, out of the vortex of noise—and just ask: What is meaningful right now? What can I hold onto and name as valuable?

And the size doesn’t matter—big or small, it all adds up when we celebrate. That’s why we do this.

Okay... I said I wasn’t going to celebrate this, but I am. I’m celebrating age.

Kim Romain (05:28):
(Laughs) You even sounded older when you said it.

Louise Neil (05:37):
Right?! (Laughs) I’ve been on this journey lately—especially these past few months—really looking at my mindset about aging. The days behind us, the ones ahead of us—or maybe not ahead of us.

Middle age can feel really crunchy. But I want to practice celebrating being here. I’m 53, I feel fantastic, and I’m celebrating the mindset shift that’s happening. Even on the days when I wake up and my body aches and hurts... I remind myself, it’s temporary. Not forever.

So I’m celebrating that shift, even if I’m not all the way there yet.

Kim Romain (06:55):
I totally thought you were going to say a different “sh” word.

Louise Neil (06:58):
(Laughs) The shit that’s going on?! There’s some of that too—but this is the celebration part, not the chaos part.

Shoshana Allice (07:12):
I just realized I forgot to ask if cussing was allowed. So... thank you for answering that question!

Kim Romain (07:19):
(Laughing) Yes, absolutely. Bring all of you—cussing and all.

Louise Neil (07:28):
Kim—what are you celebrating this week?

Kim Romain (07:28):
I'm celebrating... questions. The power of questions.

I had a session with my writing coach today and came in like, “We could talk about what I’m writing... or we could talk about what’s happening when I’m writing.” Because honestly? It’s been hard. The process has been heavy.

But in talking it through, I realized—oh, this is just where I am in the process. It’s okay. It won’t always feel like this.

Kim Romain (07:57):
We also talked about experimenting—exploring—just like we always do in our work. What can be adjusted so that this process actually serves me?

One thing that came up is that I do better writing longhand. Pen to paper just flows more naturally for me. I’ve embraced that—but moving it to the computer? That’s where it all breaks down. The second I sit down to type, it’s like this cacophony. It’s not just my voice anymore. There’s suddenly all this energetic noise.

And that’s when it hit me—yes, I might have all the tabs closed. But energetically, I’m still plugged into the world. Even when I’m just trying to edit a piece.

So right before we started recording, I grabbed a piece of selenite for clarity. Because I need help grounding myself—clearing out that extra noise. So much of my life is spent right in front of this computer... connected to everything.

And asking the question—why does it feel so heavy?—that opened something. It reminded me I don’t have to throw out the whole process. I can shift it. I can choose ease. I can stay curious even when I can’t stop the downloads coming in.

So yeah... I’m celebrating questions. Celebrating curiosity. Celebrating this messy, beautiful process of figuring it out.

Louise Neil (11:07):
Okay... but I have a question. (Laughs) I know we’ve got things to do and a show to run—but I’m curious.

Isn’t writing supposed to make you feel something? Like... isn’t that the point?

Kim Romain (11:33):
Yes! And also—no! I don’t want to feel something about the process of writing while I’m also feeling something about what I’m writing. There’s only so much feeling a person can hold!

Shoshana Allice (11:42):
(Laughing) That’s very meta.

Louise Neil (11:48):
We know what word you don’t want to use...

Shoshana Allice (11:49):
Can we reclaim it?

Kim Romain (11:51):
Maybe. Maybe. I’m not ready yet. I still need to process that. (Laughs)

Louise Neil (11:54):
The “P” word! Add it to the list with the letter “X”...

Kim Romain (11:58):
(Laughing) There’s a lot we need to reclaim right now.

But seriously—writing can absolutely elicit emotion. That part, I’m cool with. I like that. That’s why we do it.

It’s when the process itself feels hard—like, “Why is this taking me two and a half hours to write 500 words?” That’s the part I struggle with. The internal voice that says, “This shouldn’t be so hard.” The judgment.

Shoshana Allice (12:59):
Yeah, I’m hearing a lot of judgment in there...

Kim Romain (13:20):
Exactly! And that’s why I’m working with a mentor. I want to grow, shift old habits, try new ones. But when it gets hard, that old story comes up: I thought I was good at this—why is this so difficult?

And part of the answer is... I’ve changed. I used to be hyper-focused. Now I live more openly—more energetically attuned. And that openness makes it harder to focus in traditional ways. Plus: perimenopause, menopause, cognitive overload... all the things.

So yeah. Did that answer your question?

Louise Neil (14:29):
It went exactly where it needed to go.

Kim Romain (14:34):
Okay—before we digress any further, I want to properly introduce today’s guest. Because wow, this is such a powerful conversation already.

Shoshana Allice is a neuro-inclusive leadership coach and consultant who is deeply committed to decolonizing leadership and cultivating diverse, equitable, and inclusive spaces.

She facilitates courageous conversations that dismantle the barriers to genuine belonging.

She holds a Master’s in Human Systems Intervention from Concordia University, is an ICF Professional Certified Coach, and a Certified Dare to Lead™ Facilitator. Shoshana is a disabled, neurodiverse, queer, fat settler living on stolen Musqueam lands.

She believes the only viable path forward for humanity is through connection and interdependence—and she’s committed to working together for our collective liberation.

There’s a quote in her bio—from Lilla Watson—that I love:
 “If you have come here to help me, you are wasting your time. But if you have come because your liberation is bound up with mine, then let us work together.”

Louise Neil (16:04):
Goosebumps. Every time I hear that quote...

Shoshana Allice (16:06):
Right? I sent it to you—and I still get chills. It just lands so hard—especially in today’s world.

Kim Romain (16:29):
Yeah. Indeed. It just feels sharper now—like we’re being collectively invited to truly see and feel what connection means.

Louise Neil (16:32):
Yeah. And before we hit record, we were chatting about how Kim and I knew where you lived in Canada based on the ancestral name of the land you mentioned. That just felt so beautiful. It's something newer to me, but it’s become so meaningful.

Tell us a little bit more about why that’s important to you. You’ve included it in your bio—but it shows up in so much of your work. Talk to us about that connection and this word: decolonizing.

Shoshana Allice (17:19):
Yeah. So, there’s this movement across Canada—I'm not really sure what’s happening south of the border—but here, especially in the part of Turtle Island we call British Columbia, land acknowledgements are becoming more common. And BC is unique because it’s made up entirely of unceded territory. Other provinces have treaties... even if those treaties have been broken.

But here? The First Nations have been stewarding this land since long before settlers arrived—and they never gave it up. So when I say I’m living on stolen land, that’s not just a phrase. It’s the truth.

And the thing is—the Nations here, particularly the Musqueam, Squamish, and Tsleil-Waututh—are a powerful force. I say that with deep respect. Land acknowledgements here are expected. If you’re opening a conference or even a meeting, you acknowledge whose land you’re on.

But for me, it’s not just about doing it—it’s about remembering. About not letting it become a rote performance. If I’m teaching or facilitating in a different region, I ask: Whose land am I on now? How do I pronounce these names correctly?

I live in what’s colonially called East Vancouver. It’s Musqueam land—but in general, this area is recognized as Coast Salish territory.

And I’m a white settler. My kiddo is Métis-Cree through his dad’s lineage—somewhere in Alberta, as far as we can trace. So that connection is personal too.

Kim Romain (19:59):
Yeah. So it’s unceded here too—I live on the unceded territory of the Kanien’kehá:ka, on what’s colonially known as the island of Montreal.

Coming here from the U.S., it was such a shift to hear land acknowledgements woven into everyday life. Our daughter’s in ninth grade now—Sec 3—and this is just part of what she knows. But when we visit the U.S. and mention it? People are shocked. They’re like, “Wow, Canadians must really have that figured out.”

And I’m like... we’re working on it.

Louise Neil (20:57):
Yeah. Totally. I live on Treaty 1 Territory—so the very first treaty. As a settler, understanding what that means—and how it’s been broken—has been profound.

At the same time, I feel proud to live here. Not because we’ve solved it—but because we’re talking about it. We’re acknowledging the truth.

And I’m so proud to say this is also the home of the Métis. That gives me chills just to say out loud.

And now we have an Indigenous Premier here in Manitoba, which is incredible. There’s something really powerful about this moment in Canadian history—like we’re being asked to reimagine how we all live together. Not pretending the trauma didn’t happen—but figuring out how we heal and move forward. Together.

Kim Romain (23:28):
So, Shoshana—I’d love to know how all of this we’ve been talking about shows up in the work you do. Because you use this powerful phrase: decolonizing leadership.

And I think I understand that based on my own work—but I’d love to hear what it means from your perspective. Especially for someone hearing it and going, “Wait—that sounds cool, but what does it really mean?”

Shoshana Allice (23:55):
Yeah. So that phrase really started crystallizing for me about two and a half years ago. And I remember going down this rabbit hole—asking, “What does decolonizing actually mean?” Especially here in BC, where Indigenous communities are so strong.

I wondered—is this concept just about Indigenous land and reconciliation? And the answer I landed on was... yes and no.

Because the deeper I looked, the clearer it became: the water we’re all swimming in? It’s colonial.

We’re swimming in late-stage capitalism. White supremacy. Patriarchy. Misogyny. Homophobia. Fatphobia. Ableism. All of it. And it’s all connected.

They’re all systems that function on power over. On scarcity. On in-group versus out-group. And a lot of our leadership models are built on those same foundations.

So I started asking: Where do our beliefs about leadership even come from?

Do a YouTube search for leadership frameworks—almost every result is a white man talking. Maybe you’ll get Brené Brown. But otherwise? Not a lot of diverse voices out there.

Meanwhile, there are incredible Black, Brown, queer, Indigenous, neurodivergent thinkers out there—we just don’t see them in those spaces.

So I started asking: Are we doing leadership this way because it actually works? Or because it’s just what we were taught?

For me, decolonizing leadership doesn’t mean tossing everything out. It means checking our assumptions. Peeling back the layers. Exploring: Where did this idea come from? Does it serve us now?

It’s still leadership coaching. I still teach people how to have hard conversations. I still facilitate courage work through Dare to Lead. But the how has shifted.

It’s much more grounded in humanity. In intersectionality. In privilege. In truth.

 Have you ever been in one of those workshops or trainings where the facilitator opens by saying, “This is a safe space”?

Kim Romain (28:16):
Ugh. I can’t with that term. I always say I aim to create brave spaces—because I can’t guarantee what’s safe for someone else.

Shoshana Allice (28:26):
Exactly. I can’t either. What feels safe for me might feel deeply unsafe for someone else.

So in my work, I talk about doing our part to create more safety—acknowledging what’s in our control. We aim to make the space as safe as possible... but we never make promises we can’t keep.

A big part of the Dare to Lead framework is about taking off the armor—that stuff that gets in the way of showing up with courage.

But I’ll never tell someone to take off their armor. I don’t know how much courage it took for them to even walk in the door. If you’re a person of color, just showing up in a room full of white folks might already be a deeply vulnerable act.

I can help people understand that. Especially white folks. That our job is to make it safer for others to choose to soften, to maybe take off a little armor.

But the choice is always theirs. Always.

Louise Neil (29:58):
Yes. Because we are always operating inside systems, right? And it’s not just one system—it’s layers of systems.

And we don’t always even know what armor we’re carrying. We’ve been swimming in this water since birth, and we just think it’s normal.

Shoshana Allice (30:43):
Totally. And that armor? It served us. It’s a collection of self-protective strategies we picked up along the way—most of them for good reason.

We needed them to stay safe. And sometimes, we still do need them. But what I want to offer is choice. More awareness, so we can choose when to put the armor on, and when it might be okay to take a piece off.

Because real connection? Deep, meaningful connection? That can’t happen when we’re fully armored.

Kim Romain (31:35):
I’m so lit up by this right now. Like... yes. Yes.

Because in my work, I use different language—but the same concepts. Systems. Misalignments. Armor.

So often we build these layers of protection, these ways of surviving—and we don’t even realize they’re keeping us from living in alignment with who we really are. And maybe we don’t even know who that person is underneath it all.

But when we start to soften... when we give ourselves space... we begin to see, “Wait—that belief? That doesn’t even feel like mine.”

Shoshana Allice (32:03):
Exactly.

Kim Romain (32:06):
Those shadow parts of ourselves—they aren’t bad. They protected us. But they also shaped how we move through the world.

And like you said earlier—not everyone feels safe in the world to begin with. Especially now.

So... if someone is listening and thinking, “Okay, I want to start this work—I want to begin decolonizing my thoughts, my leadership, the way I show up in the world...” Where do they start?

Shoshana Allice (33:31):
Honestly? If you’re asking the question... you’ve already started.

Curiosity is everything. That moment of wondering—it opens the door.

Whether you’re a senior leader, an entrepreneur, a parent, a community member—if you’re willing to ask, “What do I believe? Where did that belief come from? Do I actually believe that?”—you’re already on the path.

Ask yourself:

• What are the assumptions I’m making?
• What stories am I telling myself?
• Where have I internalized messages that aren’t serving me?

Also—look at where you hold privilege. I know that’s a loaded word, but it’s not about shame. It’s about systems. It’s not good or bad—it’s just true. And once we see it, we can decide how to use it.

Louise Neil (34:36):
Yes. That inner work... whew. I remember when I first really started seeing my own layers, my own armor—I was like, holy shit. This stuff runs deep.

Shoshana Allice (34:47):
Same. When I was a teen, I read People of the Pines—it was about the Oka crisis. That was my first real entry point into understanding Indigenous issues in Canada.

And I spent years after that feeling deeply ashamed of being white. But eventually, I realized... that doesn’t serve anyone.

There’s actual research showing that shame is inversely correlated with meaningful behavior change. It keeps us stuck.

And also—I didn’t choose my whiteness. But I do have a responsibility to use my privilege thoughtfully. To lift others up when I can. And to also name where I don’t have privilege—like being disabled.

Internalized ableism has done so much damage in my life. Same with fatphobia. Same with the ways neurodivergence has been misunderstood.

So yes. Curiosity. Compassion. And unlearning. That’s the work.

Louise Neil (37:01):
Yes—unlearning. And believing there’s another way.

You know, I’ve been noticing this push energy we carry... this constant grind to get through things. Push harder. Force your way forward.

And for a while, that can work. But eventually, it breaks us. And I think so many of us are at that point of asking—can we stop pushing?

Shoshana Allice (37:54):
Yes. Because that pushing? It’s trying to force us to fit in. To meet expectations that were never meant for us in the first place.

Louise Neil (38:08):
Exactly. We’re hustling so hard to fit in, and when it doesn’t feel right—guess what? It’s because it’s not right.

Kim Romain (38:16):
I think that ties into something else I know you work deeply with, Shoshana: belonging.

So many people keep pushing, even when it’s hard, because they just want to belong. And we know—on this show, in this conversation—that resistance is an invitation to pause and get curious.

But most people? They’re just trying to survive. They just want to fit. And that’s heartbreaking.

Shoshana Allice (38:56):
Yeah. And here’s the thing—belonging and fitting in are not the same.

Belonging is: I get to show up fully. I don’t have to perform. I don’t have to hide the messy parts. I belong just as I am.

Fitting in is about changing who I am so I’ll be accepted. It’s about shapeshifting, silencing, pretzeling myself. And even when I “fit,” I still don’t feel like I belong—because I know I’m not being seen for who I really am.

So it becomes this constant hustle, this low-level fear that the group will find out I’m not actually like them. It’s exhausting. And it’s painful.

Kim Romain (41:04):
Yes. And that false belief—that we’ll earn belonging by fitting in—is so deeply embedded in our culture.

We’ve built whole systems around it. Our society tells us: if you buy this, wear that, say this, then you’ll be accepted.

Shoshana Allice (41:35):
Exactly. If you don’t feel like you belong, capitalism is right there to sell you the illusion. Just buy the right clothes, the right car, the right body, the right face...

Our entire economy depends on people believing they’re not enough.

We’ve been taught that our worth is measured by productivity. That our belonging is tied to our appearance or our income. And that’s such a harmful lie.

It keeps us hustling for something that was never meant to be bought.

Kim Romain (43:18):
And I want to add what Louise said earlier—diversity of age matters too.

There’s so much ageism, especially toward women. We’ve lost connection to the wisdom of the elders—particularly in Western culture. And now, as a middle-aged white woman, I notice the shift.

When I was younger, I had to worry about safety in different ways. And now I have a different kind of freedom—but also a different kind of invisibility.

Same with my mom—at 80, her safety is again at risk in different ways.

It’s such a strange arc. And so much of that is tied to how we’ve abandoned indigenous wisdom, and the sacred role of elders and community.

We need to bring that back.

Shoshana Allice (44:23):
Yes. And we need more space to have these kinds of conversations.

Kim Romain (44:28):
I feel like “Rabbit Holes & Soapboxes” might be the title of your future book.

Shoshana Allice (44:35):
(Laughs) Ooooh, yes! I love that. That feels accurate.

Louise Neil (44:44):
It’s so interesting—here we are, in the middle of our lives. Mid-career, mid-life... whatever you want to call it.

And we’re supposed to have it all figured out, right? Like after decades of work and life and relationships, we should know what we’re doing.

But for me? It’s the opposite. I’m finally becoming aware of how much I don’t know.

And I’m also starting to see what I do know—especially when I shed those systems, those judgments. But I couldn’t have had this wisdom at 20. We don’t have this conversation at 20. We have it now, in the middle.

And I love that. I feel like a kid in a candy store—like, tell me more! Teach me more!

Shoshana Allice (47:00):
Yes! I love what you said.

There’s something about middle age—whether you like the term or not—that opens us up.

And I love watching the younger generations too. Because while we’re doing the work of unlearning, they’re doing the work of imagining something new.

I have an 8-year-old and a 27-year-old stepdaughter—so I get to witness both. And the conversations they’re having? The awareness they have? It’s incredible.

Kim Romain (48:02):
Totally. Listening to my 15-year-old and her friends—it’s like, wow.

And when I talk to Black women in their 20s, I’m blown away by what they see, how they think, how they feel the world. We can learn so much from them.

And my daughter is like, “Wait—you didn’t have these conversations when you were my age?”

And I’m like, “We were trying to. But we didn’t have the language.”

Now that we do, how beautiful is that?

Kim Romain (48:30):
So yeah—we were doing similar work in the ’80s, at least within my circles. We were challenging gender norms, exploring identity... but we didn’t have words for what we were feeling. What we were navigating.

And now? Now there’s language. Now there’s community. Now there are frameworks. And that’s such a gift.

So I think, as Louise said earlier, there’s this unlearning we’re doing—and that can happen at different points in life. But it all starts with openness. With curiosity.

That’s what I’m taking from this conversation. That’s what’s landing.

And okay—we could keep going forever, but let’s be kind to our listeners. So Shoshana—will you come back and talk with us again?

Shoshana Allice (49:49):
Absolutely. It would be my pleasure.

Kim Romain (49:58):
Yay! So before we wrap today, what do we want to underline? Highlight? Circle in neon?

What’s something you want to make sure listeners take with them from this conversation?

Shoshana Allice (50:03):
Okay—this is a resource we didn’t actually talk about, but it popped into my mind as we were speaking.

If you haven’t heard of Tricia Hersey and The Nap Ministry—go look her up. Her book Rest is Resistance is a game changer.

If you want a starting point for decolonizing your life or leadership, rest is a powerful place to begin.

So many of us are taught that rest is lazy or indulgent—but it’s not. It’s revolutionary. It’s reclaiming your body, your time, your worth.

Louise Neil (50:39):
Yes! Kim, we were just talking about that book not that long ago.

Kim Romain (50:43):
We did! I brought it into my group this month. It’s such important work.

Louise Neil (50:48):
And you know what else I’m thinking of? That metaphor you shared earlier—about water.

The idea that we’re like fish—we don’t know we’re in water until someone points it out, or we jump out of it.

And then suddenly, it’s like, “Oh. That’s what I’ve been immersed in this whole time.”

There’s this beautiful video—This is Water—we should link it in the show notes. It captures that realization so well. The awareness of what surrounds us, and what shapes us.

Kim Romain (51:57):
Yes, yes. And coming back to what you said, Shoshana—curiosity.

I started this episode celebrating questions. And I don’t always, by the way. Louise is usually the question-asker. I’m the rebel. (Laughs)

But when we’re doing this work—when we’re unraveling systems and beliefs—we have to ask questions.

And yes—you’re going to get it wrong sometimes. You might piss someone off. You might hurt someone without meaning to.

But that’s okay.

Shoshana Allice (53:25):
Yes. And you don’t need to beat yourself up for it.

Perfection doesn’t exist. That’s just another illusion—another product of the systems we’re trying to unlearn.

What you can do is stay curious. Stay kind. Especially with yourself.

When you notice something that feels out of alignment—pause. Take a breath. And then ask: What’s the next right thing?

That’s it. That’s the work.

Kim Romain (54:15):
Yeah. That inner dialogue—I’ve had the “Why am I a white woman? I hate this” moment. I’ve cried. I’ve raged.

And then I realized... that’s not helping anyone. That’s not doing the work.

That’s just reenacting the same cycles.

Shoshana Allice (54:44):
Exactly.

Kim Romain (54:46):
So, Shoshana—tell our listeners where they can find you. How can folks connect with you and your work?

Shoshana Allice (54:56):
Sure! You can find me at decolonizingleadership.com.

There’s not a ton on the site right now—hopefully more by the time this episode airs—but you’ll either find helpful content or a link to my LinkedIn, depending on how much capacity I’ve had. (Laughs)

Because the truth is, as a disabled person, things move slowly sometimes. But if this conversation resonated with you, please reach out. There’s a contact form on the site. I love connecting—whether that’s to collaborate, share resources, or just have more conversations like this.

Kim Romain (55:44):
Well, we are so glad you had the capacity to be here with us today. This conversation was everything.

And we’re definitely having you back.

Shoshana Allice (55:53):
These kinds of conversations actually fill me up. They’re capacity-building in the best way. I’m so grateful. Thank you both.

Louise Neil (56:04):
Yes—same. And dear listener, we hope you feel filled up too. Because we certainly do.

Thanks for being with us. Take care—and we’ll see you next time.

Shoshana Allice (56:22):
Bye for now.

Kim Romain (56:23):
Bye everyone.

Resources & Mentions:

• Tricia Hersey & The Nap Ministry – Rest is Resistance
• This Is Water – David Foster Wallace
• decolonizingleadership.com – Connect with Shoshana and explore her work