The Power of Joy, Permission & Choosing Yourself with Heather Vickery

What does it really mean to live from a place of joy? And why does it feel so hard to access in the middle of everyday life?

In this heartfelt and laughter-filled episode of The Empowered & Embodied Show, Kim and Louise sit down with transformational success coach and speaker Heather Vickery to explore the power of joy, midlife identity shifts, Human Design, and the radical permission to choose yourself.

Together, we unpack:

• How to reclaim joy as a daily practice, not just a fleeting moment
• What Human Design reveals about burnout, performance, and energy misalignment
• Why midlife is actually a portal to deeper freedom (hello, Chiron return!)
• The truth about self-trust and how to stop outsourcing your worth
• Compassionate self-touch as a tool for nervous system healing and embodiment
• Why representation, fringe-living, and showing up as you are matter more than ever

Whether you’re trying to find your rhythm, craving rest, or simply someone ready to feel more like yourself again, this conversation is a warm invitation home.

Key Moments: 

00:00 Intro: Welcome to The Empowered and Embodied Show

02:08 Meet Heather Vickery + Embodied Joy as a Set Point

06:50 Choosing Joy Instead of Waiting for It

09:27 Listening to Your Intuition & Midlife Downloads

10:53 The Chiron Return & Zero F*cks Fifties

15:14 What Embodied Joy Looks Like on a Regular Tuesday

23:16 Trusting Yourself Enough to Take the Leap

26:31 How Do We Help People Know They Have Magic?

30:22 The Difference Between Being Awake vs. Performing

34:22 Compassionate Self-Touch

38:57 There’s No Wrong Way to Love Yourself

40:34 The Power of Permission, Play, and Legos

44:26 Self-Compassion, Even When It Feels Unsafe

45:18 Final Takeaways: Don’t Wait for Joy. Create It

49:41 Wrap-Up: You Are Not Alone on the Fringe

Connect with Heather Vickery:

 🌐 Website: https://vickeryandco.com

 🎙 Podcast: Was It Chance?

 🗓 Free Office Hours: Tuesdays at 12pm CT – Register via her site

 📧 Substack: https://braveheathervickery.substack.com/

Join a circle of changemakers committed to leading with purpose, presence and ease inside Kim's Rising Visionaries mentorship program.

Reclaim your career and confidence during midlife through Louise's Rise & Redefine program.

If you’re loving this show, come check out the Feminist Podcasters Collective, where creators like us are uplifting diverse voices and driving meaningful change. If you’re looking for new shows to fill your feed, head to https://feministpodcasterscollective.com to explore everything we have to offer.

Transcript

The Empowered & Embodied Show

Episode #165

Title: The Power of Joy, Permission & Choosing Yourself

Guest: Heather Vickery

Hosts: Kim Romain and Louise Neil

(01:03) Kim Romain: Hi there, welcome to the Empowered and Embodied show. I'm Kim Romain.

(01:03) Louise Neil: And I'm Louise Neil. We're two transformational coaches who are also fellow travelers on the path of growth and self-discovery.

(01:03) Kim Romain: And we're inviting you along for the ride. That's right. We're right here in the trenches with you, navigating the ups and downs of life. And each week we'll be sharing our own experiences, bringing you conversations with amazing guests, and exploring insights and strategies that have helped us find more clarity, confidence, and ease in our lives. And trust us, we do not have it all figured out. We're learning and growing right alongside you. So if you're ready to rise above the chaos, doubt, and confusion that sometimes life throws our way and step into a more empowered and embodied version of yourself, then you're in the right place. Let's get started.

(02:08) Kim Romain: Welcome back to another episode of the Empowered and Embodied show, and we are off to a raucous good time today. I am one of your co-hosts, Kim Romain, joined as always by my giggly co-host.

(02:24) Louise Neil: That's me, Louise, and we have such a fabulous guest today. We are joined by...

(02:30) Heather Vickery: Hi, I'm Heather Vickery. Thanks for calling me fabulous. I needed that today.

(02:34) Kim Romain: Hmm, you are fabulous. You are fabulous. Yeah. Heather is a transformational success coach and speaker, leveraging over 20 years of leadership experience to guide conscious leaders in leading from a place of my favorite words: embodied joy. Through her trifecta of self, knowing, liking, and trusting oneself, Heather helps clients cultivate genuine self-trust that drives authentic, impactful action in every part of life. When joy is your set point, not just a default, everything changes for you and for those around you. And Heather is joy embodied. So it is no wonder that this is the work she's doing in the world. Heather, welcome, welcome, welcome.

(03:14) Heather Vickery: Aw. Thank you.

(03:23) Louise Neil: Maybe that's why we entered this space all giggly and laughy. Just really...

(03:27) Heather Vickery: I made a dirty joke.

(03:29) Kim Romain: Yeah. Well, I set the stage for the dirty joke with mine earlier.

(03:33) Heather Vickery: You're dead.

(03:35) Kim Romain: We need that!

(03:37) Heather Vickery: Yeah. We don't laugh enough. I just think in general, we just don't put ourselves in enough situations. It's far-be it a belly laugh. So I'm always on board.

(03:38) Kim Romain: Let's join. Yeah.

(03:47) Louise Neil: Why is that? Like, what happens?

(03:51) Heather Vickery: I mean, I don't know, but if my, were to theorize on it, I would say because adulting, can I curse on your show? Adulting fucking sucks. I mean, it doesn't, because it's cool to, like, you know, have autonomy and have money and all those things, but it also is a lot of pressure, and we're super conditioned to do all the right things and all the right ways at all the right times. And so it's...

(03:59) Kim Romain: Fuck yeah.

(03:59) Louise Neil: Yes.

(04:18) Heather Vickery: And we don't give ourselves enough space to laugh and play or be joyful. And I'm just, I'm so not here for it. And I know you're not, Kim, and I'm just now meeting Louise, I'm guessing you're not either. And that's kind of like, I feel it's so revolutionary. Like, we know we don't have to do it this way anymore. I don't want this. And the other reason is, I think, 'cause of those of you who know human design, and I know Kim knows human design. We live in a world built by generators for generators, and the rest of us are just trying to fucking keep up all the time. I'm a Projector, 1/3 splenic Projector who's like, can I please go back to bed?

(04:56) Kim Romain: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm married to a 1/4 splenic Projector and I gave birth to a 5/1 splenic Projector. Now, you are here with two Manifesting Generators, and I will tell you, two tired Manifesting Generators, because even living in a world built for generators, I really don't think people understand who Manifesting Generators are.

(05:06) Heather Vickery: Well, it puts you through your paces then. Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I agree with you, because the world is not built for Manifesting Generators because y'all are multi-passionate. You're not supposed to finish everything you start. And the generator world who built everything is like, you must finish everything you start. You, you know, we don't know that you have to, it's a hell yes or it's a fuck no, right? They don't follow that path. So you're saying yes to things 'cause you think you're supposed to, and you hate the whole time. You hate it and you feel miserable, but you don't know why. So I say just generators, the world is built by generators for generators, because the rest of us are off trying to be creative and try new things and explore. And the generators are like, no, no, you have to do it like this and you have to get it done quickly. No.

(06:07) Kim Romain: And I just heard like this, like, exhale from Louise. She's like,

(06:11) Heather Vickery: That makes me happy. I love helping people exhale.

(06:15) Kim Romain: Yeah, I know.

(06:18) Louise Neil: Just that constant like, go, go, do, do, and it's, it is exhausting. And it's, I feel extra exhausted in this period of my life as well, because it's not like I'm getting enough sleep or any of those things that are at all helpful. But yeah, it is that was like a relief to hear like, like the world doesn't feel like it's designed for me.

(06:37) Heather Vickery: Yeah.

(06:46) Louise Neil: And it's hard to fit into that.

(06:50) Heather Vickery: So I guess if you tie that back into, why is it that we don't laugh enough? It's because it is hard, and we have to make it, we have to create it, we have to choose it, we have to put ourselves in the path of laughter and joy, right? Because it isn't going to find us. It's like peace. I'm hosting a retreat in Costa Rica in January that I call the Reclaim Your Peace Retreat. And peace isn't a thing you discover. It is a thing you are. But it's not that if you don't look for it, if you're not seeking it and paying attention, you're not going to have it. You're not going to find it. And I think it's the same with feeling like you fit in or joy or laughter or any of those things. Like, they aren't magic. You've got to create space for them.

(07:36) Kim Romain: Want to recognize when they're there. I was talking with a client this morning who is, is the embodiment of, of joy and light. And I mean, it's all over her design. She is the embodiment of this. She's a Projector and she is, I know, I love my Projectors. And she is starting to feel that auric connection where all of a sudden people are magnetized to her. They're showing up to her and saying,

(07:38) Heather Vickery: Yes. Love. Yeah.

(08:05) Kim Romain: You are filled with so much joy and light. They're seeing it in her, which then creates that ripple effect where they're feeling the joy and the light and the love.

(08:14) Heather Vickery: Yep. What's tricky about that is we want, we have to, we have to be invited, but if we're not showing up, we can't be invited. If people don't know we're there, they can't invite us. And so it is a little bit of a chasing your tail to make sure you're in the right spaces where people can see all that joy and light.

(08:31) Kim Romain: Right. And have that recognition, because that's the other part that gets left out so often, right? Is that place of the invitation and the recognition, and how can that recognition lead to an invitation to continue to show up? And so if we take this out of the human design, like, you and I could geek out all day on it. We'll try not to. And, if we take it outside of this human design, like that space of waiting...

(08:33) Heather Vickery: Mm-hmm. I know, we won't do that. Ha ha! Hmm.

(09:00) Kim Romain: Because we all sometimes feel like we're waiting. We're waiting for an opportunity to feel better. We're waiting for an opportunity to exhale. We're waiting, right? We're waiting for an operative, whatever. That place of waiting, I think, is part of what feels like we can't laugh, that we can't feel the joy.

(09:20) Heather Vickery: So what happens if we decide not to wait? If we just decide to be?

(09:25) Kim Romain: Yeah!

(09:27) Heather Vickery: Something interesting has happened to me in the last few months, literally in the last few months. I mean, I've always been very intuitive, very connected to knowing stuff. And part of that is Projector, part of that, I don't know, whatever, it could be lots of things. Since I came back from my planning trip in Costa Rica, and I'm not trying to sell you guys on this, promise, but it's relevant. Something shifted in me in that space, and all of a sudden, the messages that I know I've been getting, like, let's say, in my sleep or throughout the day, are starting to be louder and I remember them. So that space between sleep and wake, I now get really clear downloads, really clear, you need to hear this. And when I have taken immediate action on that, I get a result within 24, 48 hours from it. It's wild.

(10:21) Kim Romain: It's sexy.

(10:21) Heather Vickery: So it's super sexy and it's cool. It's, you know, I don't even know. I don't understand this message, but okay. And I don't need to. That's so much of my life and my approach to work and parenting and humaning is I'm just going to surrender and show up and do the thing. And not going to attach to a specific outcome. We're just going to see what happens. And it's, it's been cool. And I know those messages have always been there. I just either didn't hear them or didn't keep them. I couldn't remember them.

(10:53) Kim Romain: So I'm not here to divulge your age. Okay, right? So, nice Chiron return. Welcome to Chiron return. There is something, Louise, you and I were just talking about this, that, like, the zero fuck fifties are very real. And I think a lot of it has to do with this place of our Chiron return, because all of a sudden, all the learning, regardless of what your design, so I'm a 4/6. So, of course, that six line is like, I'm like...

(10:56) Heather Vickery: No, I'm 50. Hey. Thank you. Thanks.

(11:21) Kim Romain: I promise I'm not going to stay in human design in this whole conversation. That six line allows that the Chiron return to have like superpower, but we all go through it. And there is something really amazing that when we go through it, there is a shift, not everybody's fond of the term upgrade. Evolution. There we go. Yeah.

(11:22) Heather Vickery: Thank. I think it's an upgrade. Evolution is a good word. Yeah.

(11:48) Kim Romain: We've evolved, we've grown into this next thing. And again, whether or not human design is your thing, or whether or not any of the woo-wee stuff is your thing, allowing yourself to see that you've moved into, you've evolved into another stage, we do get to start holding onto things in a very cool, very different way.

(12:13) Heather Vickery: Very different way. So I will follow that up. And I'm curious, really curious to hear what Louise says. You may already know this. We've talked, before we started recording, we were talking about menopause and perimenopause. And I'm doing a lot of reading and learning because I want to understand. And I just finished Menopause Brain. And the science, the neuroscience, shows that as your hormones change, she literally referred to it as the zero fuck stage. So it also aligns, if you're a woman with, or if you have ovaries and a uterus, with your hormone shifts, where your brain literally goes, yeah, you don't fucking care about that anymore at all. Like, that is not important. You do not need to hold space for that. So all of these things combined, like you can be woo and spiritual, you can be science-based. Whatever you want to call it, it is real.

(13:15) Louise Neil: It is real, and it's happening. And that's super scary sometimes too. As much as we lean into, or as much as I lean into, yeah, I care less about a lot of things, and it's opening up a lot of doors, and it's really fun and exciting. And at the same time, it shakes my identity because I've spent the last half a century as a certain way.

(13:44) Heather Vickery: Hmm.

(13:44) Louise Neil: Believing I'm a certain kind of person. I'm a shy introvert that sits in the corner and doesn't say a lot. And that's not who I am anymore, but shedding that identity gets really hard.

(13:52) Heather Vickery: Mm. It's hard to let that go. Yeah. And it's hard when people around you don't, quote, unquote, recognize you. Why are you different? Because they make it personal. Like, that's so much of my personal work is not making other people's shit about me. But you can't do that, at least for me. I can't do that until I'm doing my work to recognize myself. And then I go, oh, they got a thing. That's not about me. We had somebody who attended my, I host a monthly networking breakfast this morning, or I hosted the second Friday of every month. I had it this morning. See, we're just gonna pray, pray, and then pause. And they came up to me early on and there was this teeny tiny bit of conflict and they stayed, but they left without saying goodbye. I, on the way home, somebody else who had sat with them was like, hey, what was up with that person? And I'm like, I'm not really sure, I don't know. And I said, but past me would have been really worried. I would have reached out, I would have made sure everything's okay, I would have been afraid they were mad at me, and now I'm like, it's all gonna be fine. And the energy in this room is really good. And that's the one thing everybody says to me is, I love the energy in this room. And if the energy didn't vibe with them, that's fine, but that's a them problem, that's not a me problem.

(15:14) Louise Neil: Yeah, yeah. So embodied joy. What does that look like on a regular Tuesday?

(15:22) Heather Vickery: Mm. I think it looks different for everybody, and it looks different every Tuesday. And I just think that's really important for people to know because sometimes for me, embodied joy is a cup of tea and a book on my couch, and I don't do anything else. Sometimes it's a packed agenda where I'm coaching client after client. I'm so excited to be helping people transform their lives. Sometimes it's buying a ticket to Paris, which is what I always want to be doing, actually, is going to Paris. You've got to decide, just like defining success, defining bravery, you have to decide what joy is for you and what it is when it's micro and what it is when it's macro so that you can recognize it.

(16:07) Kim Romain: Well, and that comes from knowing yourself. And that's a really, we talk about it a lot on here, is how do we actually get to know ourselves? What are the ways in which we can step into knowing it, not just knowing, not just saying, right, I've always been an introvert, but I'm not feeling quite so introverted anymore, but that deep knowing, that's harder.

(16:09) Heather Vickery: It does. Yeah. Yeah. It's hard. It's hard. I think it's hard to start. I don't actually think it's that hard to do, because once you start, you know, awareness, I think is the most powerful transformation tool that exists. And once you start to recognize things, you kind of only have two choices. You're either going to do something about it, or you're going to willfully ignore it and you know it, and you feel bad and you know why you feel bad. And then when you can't take feeling bad anymore, then you change it, right? And so once you've started on that journey, I think it gets...

(16:37) Kim Romain: Yes. Agreed.

(17:01) Heather Vickery: Easier. That's how you move to embodied. It's one thing to think about it. When you're embodied, you're not thinking about it. My partner's a Manifestor, and she said, I'm trying so hard to be an aligned Manifestor. I said, that's why you're not an aligned Manifestor. 'Cause you're trying too hard.

(17:17) Kim Romain: Yeah, it's the trying, right? Trying is good. Like, I don't want to knock trying, like, keep trying. That place, though, when we are owning it, when we're embodying it, it's that part we're not trying at anymore.

(17:27) Heather Vickery: Yeah. But you're pushing. Yeah. That's right. So joy. Once you build up this foundation and you recognize it, it just grows, right? It amplifies and it's super contagious. And it's so much fun to walk into a room from this place of embodied joy and watch it trickle to everyone. My morning started off chaotic and one of our guests at my breakfast every month gives the best hugs in the whole wide world. And I'm driving into the city and I'm thinking, God, I can't wait to see Brent because he's gonna give me a hug. And I told that story when I welcomed everybody and he comes running up to the front of the room and he goes, why wait? Let's do it now. And I was like, okay, well, it's kind of not the right time, but sure, give me a hug right now. Like it's fine. And everybody in the room just had the biggest smile on their face, right? That is so contagious.

(18:25) Louise Neil: You...

(18:26) Heather Vickery: I can't make a cricket sound. I can't do that.

(18:26) Louise Neil: It... It is. I think with that embodied joy and understanding that, there's this whole transformation that a lot of us have to go through just to be able to tap into that. You talked about self-awareness and how we go on this journey to say, either change or we have a choice not to change. And those are pretty much two choices that really turn into one choice, which doesn't feel like a choice.

(18:57) Heather Vickery: Yeah, eventually. Eventually it does. Eventually you cannot take it anymore and you're like, I'm not willing to accept this anymore. Yeah. That's usually about the time people find me.

(19:06) Louise Neil: Yeah.

(19:09) Kim Romain: I was going to say it's that point when we all start these conversations with our clients. This is when they show up.

(19:12) Heather Vickery: Mm-hmm. Yeah. You know what's been interesting showing up, and I'm curious to hear from both of you, what your experience with this is. Lately, I know this to be true, but I'm seeing other people catch on. Like there is a difference in these phases. The first phase is, I don't want to feel this way anymore, or I want something different for myself, and I know I have to do the work. And so you are really aware and you're learning and you're starting to do the work. And then you move into this phase where you let the work work.

(19:16) Louise Neil: Yeah.

(19:45) Heather Vickery: Where you move into the weight of the rest and the surrender and all of that. Nobody talks about that part because it's not as easy to package and market, and we don't understand it. And it's tricky because you move from doing to being and starting to embody. And it makes sense, but it's not something we talk about very often.

(20:06) Kim Romain: No, well, it's so fascinating because that has been my awakening since 2024 is that those are the people that I actually really love working with. And so I've been slowly trying to shift my business to focus on the organizations and the individuals and the teams who are there, who have been doing the work, who are now ready to take it to the next. And it's so funny, it's like my hands are going up, take it to the next level, but it's really to the next level. It's that next level deeper. Yeah.

(20:41) Heather Vickery: Yeah. It's funny, Kim, that you say that because I was talking to somebody who does marketing yesterday and she's asking me again about the retreat. She goes, well, what problem are you solving at the retreat? I said, we're not solving problems at the retreat. We are living in our bodies. We are listening to ourselves. We are being in joy. We are being in community. We are staying embodied. I was like, I guess this is why it's hard for me to market because I don't, I'm not fixing anything. Like, you... You get it. You want time for yourself. This is important. You want to prioritize it. Come take up space with us.

(21:17) Kim Romain: I think the people who are ready do get it. It's, it, and it's, I think what's hard, 'cause Louise, I think it's the same thing when you're talking about menopause in the workplace in particular, 'cause right, this is, that's your sweet spot, is that it, right? It's, it is all of this work that we're talking about, is it's work that's being done. It's work that people want to do.

(21:28) Heather Vickery: Hmm. They need you. The world needs you, Louise.

(21:47) Kim Romain: But because it's not mainstream discussion, people don't know what to do with it yet because they're not there. We were talking about that place of evolution, that place of upleveling. They haven't, and there's nothing wrong with that. That's just where they are. And those that are where each of us on this screen can serve best, it's fewer and further between. And so it does feel like cricket sometimes, but it... I don't believe that it is. Yeah.

(22:18) Heather Vickery: I agree with you.

(22:19) Louise Neil: But that's the fringes, that's the drops that make the biggest ripples, are there as an individual and as a coach and a business owner. Absolutely, I myself want to be collecting those kinds of drops. So I need less of those drops to feel different, to be different, right?

(22:22) Kim Romain: Hmm?

(22:38) Heather Vickery: Yeah. Yeah, I love that. And I think the visual there isn't that we are leaps and bounds ahead of everyone. We're just a couple of steps ahead. And we can reach, literally reach out and say, come on, I got you. Let's go together.

(23:00) Kim Romain: Yeah.

(23:00) Louise Neil: Yeah.

(23:01) Kim Romain: It fascinates me because I think that's a scary place to be.

(23:05) Heather Vickery: Yeah.

(23:05) Kim Romain: It's, it, when you know you're there, it's not as scary anymore, but it's scary when it, right? Somebody's reaching out and saying, I got you. It's like, but I don't know what you got me for.

(23:16) Heather Vickery: Yeah. Right. Yeah. I mean, my ideal client is always somebody who goes, I don't actually know what the answers are, but I know there's got to be answers and this isn't working. And we just, we just play. We try. I mean, I'm, I'm certified in, in NLP and subconsciously programming and human. I'm like, just play. We're going to, I've got this huge toolkit of ways that I can help you discover and trust yourself. So if you trust me, we will figure this out. But it is scary and I do think it takes a lot of guts to say, I'm not willing to stay here and I have no idea what to do, and I think that's okay.

(23:55) Louise Neil: That's that trust thing. I think it's okay means I'm trusting in something and you and me, something. Yeah.

(23:57) Heather Vickery: Mm-hmm. I think it's themselves. That sounds crazy, but I think it's that they can do this. They can show up for themselves. They're gonna figure it out somehow. It would be nice to say, I think, they trust me, which is great. I mean, I want them to, or they trust you, Kim, or they trust you, Louise, but really who they're trusting is themselves to take this leap with you or with me.

(24:25) Louise Neil: Yeah. And as a business owner, as a coach, you walk in the room and go, yeah, I don't have the answers. You have the answers. And then you want money to exchange hands. You already have the answers. And people are like, fine, what do I need you for? Right? But it's this whole deep understanding, right? That it really is about having a guide, having a companion,

(24:38) Heather Vickery: Well, they do. Yeah.

(24:50) Louise Neil: To say like, I'm gonna help you find the answers because then when we're done working together, you have embodied that. Like, you own that shit and you walk away owning it.

(24:50) Heather Vickery: You own it. That's right. Yeah, I get myself really, I don't get worked up about a lot these days, but I get really worked up. Hopefully I don't cross any lines here with coaches who say they empower women to X, Y, and Z. Because I really don't think that's true. I think empowerment is inside work. And we empower ourselves when we say yes, when we show up, when we say no, when we set a boundary, when we ask for help, whatever it is. And so I tell people like, I can and I hope I get to guide, coach, mentor, lead you. You are the only one that can empower yourself. You are the one with the wand. I'm just giving you some pathways to use it. So I get really bent about that. People say, I empower.

(25:48) Kim Romain: So do we. That's why we named the podcast what we did. So we were like, empowered and embodied. Okay, friends, you think you know what those words mean, but let us explain to you through beautiful guests like yourself and through our own conversations to say, no, we're not doing it for you. It's like, empowerment comes from you. You get to empower, right? I'm not empowering you. That, friends, is systemic...

(25:49) Louise Neil: Mm-hmm.

(25:52) Heather Vickery: I love them.

(26:18) Kim Romain: Oppression! That is the patriarchy telling us that we have to wait our turn!

(26:19) Heather Vickery: Yes. Yes. Yes. Or that somebody has to give it to you. You can't, you don't just have it.

(26:25) Kim Romain: Yeah. Yep. Yep.

(26:29) Heather Vickery: I love when I find my people.

(26:31) Louise Neil: So how do we help people like even know they have a magic?

(26:36) Heather Vickery: It's a really great question. I think we do what we do and we hope that it reaches out because if they can't see something, that's why representation matters so much. If they can't see somebody else doing something that they think, I could never do that. Wait, could I do that? Right. It's really hard to imagine it. I have a client who's starting a brand new business in helping women rewild who are recovering from religious trauma. So she's trying to reach women who at the very beginning of their process, and as she's gonna be in communities that feel unsafe to her, like, right? You gotta find the person who's ready. I just think you have to be represented and show up and put yourself out there. I wish I had a better answer than that. I don't know.

(27:27) Louise Neil: Kim, what do you think?

(27:28) Heather Vickery: I was like, yeah, Kim, do you have an answer?

(27:31) Kim Romain: I always have an answer. I think, yes, it's showing up in those spaces and being our authentic selves and kind of showing that. I think it goes back to what I was saying about my client earlier, who's recognizing, right, that, this is what it means to have an aura. Look, we all have an aura. We all have energy that we're putting out into the world. What is that energy that we're putting out?

(27:49) Heather Vickery: Mm-hmm.

(27:59) Kim Romain: What is that out there? Because exactly, exactly, how authentically, how in an aligned way do we choose to put that energy into the world? Is it one conversation at a time? Is it larger spaces? Is it written? Is it oral? Is it audio? Like a podcast? How are we putting ourselves so that people can start to hear it?

(28:01) Heather Vickery: Being intentional about it. Yeah.

(28:27) Kim Romain: You know, I was talking about creating, um, where we were talking about being on the fringe, right? Within our businesses, even. The way that I think people start to know that they have that magic within them, that they have that magic wand for themselves, is continuing to change the narrative. And we can only do that by sharing our voices.

(28:45) Heather Vickery: Absolutely. Yep. And by being conscious of it, that's actually interesting. Yesterday I was with a client who considers themselves very vulnerable. They come in very open, and I think that's great. And through the course of the conversation, we realized that their motivation was manipulative. They came in vulnerable with the expectation that then the people they're talking to would be vulnerable and give them what they want, which was to love them. That was it, right? Like, you want me, love me, pet me, tell me I'm amazing. And I was like, it's, that's why it's not working. Like, you're turning yourself inside out, but not, not for the sake of just honest connection, because you expect something from them and when they don't give it to you, you're really mad. And so this level of really paying attention. So I have a method I call the BRAVE method. BRAVE is an acronym, but the R stands for the three R's: reassessment, reframing, and resilience. This continuous, intentional practice of going, who do I want to be in this moment? How do I want to show up? What are the results that I want? What's working? What isn't working? And retooling that as you need to and being really honest changes everything. It changes how you engage with everyone, how you treat yourself, changes everything. And when I... When we pulled that together and she was like, holy shit, that is exactly what I'm doing. Now she's going to go into a meeting and she's going to behave differently because she knows.

(30:22) Kim Romain: It goes back to the awareness that you're talking about. It's like that awareness and the consciousness. How conscious are we? Because a lot of us are walking around unconscious.

(30:22) Louise Neil: Yeah.

(30:32) Heather Vickery: Very little consciousness for so many people. Right, right, right? Absolutely, 100%. I mean, that is the biggest problem.

(30:35) Kim Romain: And I'm not even talking about higher consciousness. I'm just talking about being fucking awake.

(30:43) Louise Neil: Yeah, and it's so funny because it's the action, sometimes the action on the outside doesn't look different, right? People will say like, I'm, but I'm doing all the things. Like, I'm there, I'm showing up. But it's like, but what's the smell that you are giving off? Right? What's the scent?

(30:58) Heather Vickery: Yeah.

(31:00) Kim Romain: Ha.

(31:01) Heather Vickery: I mean, it's like going out of your way to go to 10 networking events a week, but you always sit in the back corner. Why are you leaving the house? Right? Like, know why you're doing the things you're doing. I'd rather go to one a month and have a blast. Like, but 'cause you want to check a box? Like, I don't know. Performative. Yes.

(31:17) Kim Romain: Well, what you're talking about is performative. I'm doing it because if I perform this thing, I'm going to get, right, the golden chalice that I'm promised. That's not how it works. It does not work that way.

(31:26) Heather Vickery: And why doesn't it work? Why doesn't it work? Because it does not work. Yeah. Which is the same for social media, right? If you like all of it, if it's making you feel miserable, I can guarantee you it is not going to get you any results that you like. Ever.

(31:43) Kim Romain: Yep. Yeah.

(31:44) Heather Vickery: But you're right, it's not just higher consciousness, it's regular awareness. Most people move about their day and they don't spend any time thinking about the way that it feels, the impact that they have, if they're enjoying themselves. So it's when I say, you know, finding joy, embodying joy, you have to be looking for it. You have to be paying attention. And I'm certified in positive psychology. I've written a couple of gratitude journals. I love it when science and woo meet because we've been woo for a long time. We had all these things that we really believed in and we thought, and now science is like going,

(31:45) Louise Neil: Yeah.

(32:14) Heather Vickery: Yeah, that's real. That works. Just like we talked about with menopause and the zero fucks and like all of these things. You know, gratitude is scientifically proven to decrease overall stress, anxiety and depression while increasing overall joy, happiness and well-being. I'm not making that up. Just try it. List three to five things you're grateful for and why every day for a month and you will be different. Listen, just today and you will be different. When I do it with clients and they start, I make them do 10. And they're like, 10 things I'm grateful for? Is that if you can't list 10 things you're grateful for right now, we have bigger problems than what you walked in the door for. And then they do it. And then they're like, God, I feel so much better. I'm like, yeah, because it's okay. You're okay.

(32:55) Kim Romain: I do that with breathing. It's like, okay, shh, let's just take a breath. It's when we consciously take a breath, intentionally take a breath, all of a sudden our nervous system goes, there's not a pack of cheetahs after me.

(32:57) Heather Vickery: Yes. Yes!

(33:18) Kim Romain: And, but we forget that because that's how we're showing up and we're acting like, right? The entire thing of Noah's Ark is coming for us. They're all right there.

(33:23) Heather Vickery: Absolutely. I love that. Yeah, I mean, it's one of those things where you see somebody yawn and you yawn. When you hear somebody say, hey, pause, take a deep breath, you do it. Like subconsciously, you immediately mimic it. That's why, you know, listening to a breath work or even a meditation where they're like, take a deep breath in through your nose, you just do it. Your brain, it's like, so it feels so nice.

(33:53) Kim Romain: Yeah. And then, and then do your gratitude from that place. 'Cause you're not doing it from your brain. You're not doing it cognitively. You're feeling, right? The embodiment of the gratitude. It's so much easier.

(33:56) Heather Vickery: Yeah.

(34:06) Kim Romain: I mean, that's why we used to start with, what are we grateful for this week? What are we celebrating this week?

(34:11) Heather Vickery: Love it.

(34:13) Louise Neil: Yeah, yeah, it's breaking the habit. It's breaking the habits that have, right? What's that saying? What's got you here? We'll get you there. Like, we've developed some habits for survival because we had to survive, and now survival looks different, especially in this next chapter of our lives. It's different. We need a different set of tools.

(34:22) Heather Vickery: Yeah. Yeah. 100%. It does. My newish embodiment thing that's working right now, and I try to do regular reassessment and we'll see if it continues to work, if it needs to shift, that's fine, is like everybody else in the world, watch you guys say, I don't do that. I want to grab my phone first thing in the morning. Instinctually, I'm like, I want to grab it and look at it. And I know I shouldn't do that. So, I have been really great the last month or so, and it started as one of those messages that was in my head in that space between sleeping and waking. The message was, everything is working out for me. Everything is working out for me. Everything is working out, is always working out. You are always taken care of. Everything is always working out for you. And it would play in my head and I would keep it. And so now when I actually open my eyes, I do compassionate self-touch, hold my face and rub my arms and do all that, and I repeat that in my mind because I have a sleeping partner next to me, and then I just, I just thank the universe. I put my hands on my heart and I just say, thank you, thank you, thank you, and I, I don't know, I maybe spend 30 seconds on it, but it changes the way I show up for my day.

(35:41) Louise Neil: Yeah, I love that. Thank you for sharing that. Compassionate touch. What does that do?

(35:44) Heather Vickery: You were. Compassionate self-touch. Yeah, so I learned about it from Kristin Neff, who is the scientist who did all the research on self-compassion. And compassionate self-touch is game-changing, helps you connect with yourself, connect with your body. You know, your body doesn't know the difference between compassion that you give yourself or compassion somebody else gives you. It's your mind that says, that's so weird. Why would you put your hand on it? Why would you do that? Or why would you...

(35:48) Kim Romain: Hmm.

(36:16) Heather Vickery: Say these things to yourself. 'Cause I literally call my, I'm like, it's really okay. It's okay to have been upset about that. That was the kind of thing that would make anybody upset. It's all right. Take a deep breath. You're okay. Let it go. Um, and a little bit of Havening, but I am not trained in Havening. Kim, you want to talk about compassionate self-touch?

(36:34) Kim Romain: Well, I mean, so Kristin Neff is where I first learned about it as well. And then we, we practiced it a lot through the Embodylab, which is where I've done some different certifications. But the, the thing that, that where I go to with compassionate self-touch is I go to, my God, I just lost the term, when, when the baby's born and you put the baby on your skin. Now it's, it's...

(36:42) Heather Vickery: Like kangarooing? That's not what that's called. I know what you're talking about though.

(37:01) Kim Romain: Yeah, it's skin to skin, whatever, there's a term for that. But it's the minute the baby is out, instead of wrapping it in a towel, I mean, you want to clean it off a little bit, but you don't want to encase it in the towel, you want the baby to touch skin to skin. And that does something for the baby, but it also does something for the person who just gave birth. And it does something for the person who's with the person who just gave birth. And so,

(37:04) Heather Vickery: Mm-hmm. Yes.

(37:31) Kim Romain: Having that, and it's all the brain chemicals and the way our nervous system then it starts to re-regulate. Everybody just kind of comes into sync and starts breathing together. And it's a beautiful way to welcome a new child into the world. And so when I do self-touch, it very much is along that sense of like, I'm welcoming myself to the moment. Instead of to the world, it's to this moment. Yeah.

(37:59) Heather Vickery: Love that.

(38:00) Kim Romain: I actually do it every day when I get out of the shower. I get out of the shower and I have this oil that I like putting on my body and I used to just kind of slather it on and be like, woo, now I'm oiled. And now I use the, I actually take time to just gently move across my body and like touch every part of my body. And as I'm doing it, I'm having a conversation with self. Yeah.

(38:12) Heather Vickery: You, that's beautiful. I love that. I would never have the patience to do that, that in depth every day. So if you're listening to this and you're like, that's a great idea. I can't. Like, I am here for that. I love it. I know I could never do that because I just, I don't know, maybe it's undiagnosed ADHD. So I just want to tell people like, yes, do it like Kim's doing it or do it like I'm doing it. It doesn't matter. You can have the compound.

(38:39) Kim Romain: 100%.

(38:52) Heather Vickery: You can have 30 seconds or a minute. You can have five. Like, there's no wrong way to love yourself.

(38:57) Kim Romain: There is no wrong way. No. And see, when I first wake up in the morning, I can't. And it's not that I can't be kind to myself and compassionate to myself. It's, I wake up in the morning and I have to pee so badly. But there's no way. I'm staying in bed even for the 30 seconds. I'm like, I got...

(39:03) Heather Vickery: Yeah, there you go. I feel it. Yeah. I feel that completely. I totally get that. And that's what I mean by you got to find it. It's the same thing with joy. Like, you've got to play around and figure out what's going to work for you because it's going to be different for every single one of us.

(39:30) Louise Neil: Yeah, it's all coming back to like, not just it's a knowing, we have to know what that feels like, right? It's really hard to find joy if we don't know what joy feels like.

(39:36) Heather Vickery: Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes it's learning like, that gets to be joyful. That I can, I can claim that as joy. Eating the fresh salad or eating the chocolate bar, that can be joy. Yeah, it can. If that's the thing that brings you, if it makes you feel good in this moment, then yeah, claim it. I love it. I have a client who's realized that she's missing play in her life. And I said, what if you don't allow yourself, because she's an entrepreneur, to start work until you spend at least a few minutes playing? She was like, I can do that. And I said, yeah. She's like, wait, really? I'm like, yeah, you can. She was like, I feel like that's just turned my whole life upside down.

(40:34) Kim Romain: That place of permission is huge. Again, that's like, it is steeped into us that somebody else needs to, quote, unquote, give us permission.

(40:46) Heather Vickery: Yes. Patriarchal bullshit.

(40:49) Kim Romain: Patriarchal bullshit. We get to do it. I mean, Louise, I know I talk about this all the time, but it's because I love it so much, is working with Legos.

(41:01) Heather Vickery: Yeah, I know a lot of adults who do that actually. I get that. That would make me punch walls because I don't have the patience for Legos.

(41:05) Louise Neil: Yeah.

(41:08) Kim Romain: Like, I do Legos for myself, but she does Legos with her clients.

(41:12) Heather Vickery: That's cool. That's really cool.

(41:13) Louise Neil: Yeah. So finding anything, any tool, any object that, and I think when it can attach to a great childhood memory, is always a great place to start. Right? And so when you can kind of pull that forward and try it on again and see what it feels like as an adult, it's always a great place to explore.

(41:26) Heather Vickery: That's cool. Yeah. Hmm. That's beautiful.

(41:39) Kim Romain: I'm always fascinated by this idea of like, do we, whoever we're working with, right? Individuals, groups, whoever we're working with, whether it's, right, even leading a group on these, in the, I just lost the name of your group again. It's because I'm not in Chicago anymore. But when we have these, whatever sizes of groups or individuals in front of us, finding the entrance way to allow them to breathe, to allow them to find themselves, to allow them to laugh, to allow them to break the, quote, unquote, norm, that Louise used the word habits earlier, to break that habit of being because they're being, they're showing up in a certain way all the time. And I think that place of disruption is the gift that we give them so that they can find their want.

(42:17) Heather Vickery: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I love it. Yep, absolutely. You got to get out of your own way and get out of your routines.

(42:40) Louise Neil: Yeah. And it's all okay that you're 50-ish and you're just doing this for the first time. Right? It's all okay. There's a lot of shoulds that play out in our minds. I should have been doing this longer. I should have known earlier. I should have, I should have. It's like, stop shitting on yourself and be.

(42:41) Heather Vickery: Try new things. Of course. Yeah.

(42:51) Kim Romain: It's okay if you're 70-ish and doing this for the first time, right?

(42:59) Heather Vickery: Yeah. Hmm. Which just doesn't make anything better.

(43:08) Kim Romain: Yes.

(43:10) Heather Vickery: I was talking to my mom maybe about a year ago and she's in her early seventies and she's just really hard on herself. Massive people pleaser, and then there's, she's a trauma survivor. And she said, I go to bed every night and give myself and I get really upset with myself for the bad decisions that I've made. I said, what decisions could you have possibly made that are that bad? And...

(43:11) Louise Neil: Yeah.

(43:37) Heather Vickery: I can't tell you. I said, did you kill somebody? She was like, well, no, of course not. So then she kind of eased and I said, I can understand why those things might upset you, but think about why you made those choices in the first place. Who were you trying to protect? Me, your child. Why were you, right? Like, did you do the best you could at the time? Well, I thought I was. Okay. So, is it making you better to hate on yourself every night before you go to bed because of those choices? Does it fix anything? She said, no, it feels pretty awful. I said, so how about you just decide not to anymore? When the thoughts come up, you say something nice to yourself or you remind yourself why you did that thing that you wish maybe you hadn't done and how it worked out okay. I felt so sad for her. I really didn't feel sad for her, but I think it helped. She was like, that's really helpful. I was like, thanks, mom.

(44:24) Kim Romain: More of the self-compassion. To learn self-compassion.

(44:26) Heather Vickery: Yes. Yeah. Self-compassion is hard for people who have grown up with some trauma. But it's not safe, right? Yeah, it's hard to protect yourself. It's hard to follow the rules. It's not safe. If you're listening to this and that is you, it is safe now. It is okay. And you can start slow. You can start, you can ease in.

(44:35) Kim Romain: My goodness. I'm sure like we could talk literally all day about a gazillion and 14 things. It would all be wonderful. My goodness. What are our key takeaways? Because we kind of, we went a little bit in about 14 different directions. What are our key takeaways from the conversation today?

(44:57) Heather Vickery: Probably. Yes. Louise, you have the floor.

(45:18) Louise Neil: I say it's about permission. That we don't have to wait to do what we feel inside is good for us in that joyful way. We don't have to wait for permission to do something that's joyful. And it's okay to get started, just like you said, Heather. Anywhere, any little thing, what brings you joy, just do that.

(45:23) Heather Vickery: You...

(45:47) Louise Neil: See what happens. But you don't have to wait. Yeah, yeah, you don't have to wait anymore.

(45:47) Heather Vickery: Yeah, make it a big deal. When I take walks in the spring, I love the spring, and I look at these teeny tiny flowers, I make those flowers such a big deal. Like I stop and I look at it and I take pictures and I think, God, I love the springtime. And it just amplifies my joy. I could just walk past and be like, that's pretty, but I make it a big deal.

(46:09) Kim Romain: It's the celebration.

(46:10) Heather Vickery: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

(46:12) Kim Romain: How about for you, Heather, what's your takeaway from our conversation today?

(46:15) Heather Vickery: Just a reminder, I think, that we're all in really different places on this journey, and all of those positions can be honored and can be cared for, and you can be tender with them. So just, you know, just be playful with it and see what shows up for you instead of, you know, forcing yourself into a binary box on how you're supposed to do it.

(46:42) Kim Romain: Yeah, no binary boxes please, we don't like. We humans are beautifully complex. When we try and reduce ourselves to the binary, it just, it, yeah, it just doesn't feel good. For me, I, I, I want to just go back and kind of highlight and underline just a little bit, that idea of being on the fringe. If you feel like you're on the fringe, if you feel like people around you aren't experiencing the same thing that you are. You'd be surprised because there's a lot of people out here experiencing a lot of things that we feel like we're the only ones experiencing. And so look on the fringes because there's a lot of us over here waving and going, we're here. We're here. We got you. Yeah.

(47:15) Heather Vickery: Yeah. Absolutely. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's lovely.

(47:32) Kim Romain: Yeah. Heather, where can people find you in the world? How can they stay connected with you in all your glorious joy?

(47:40) Heather Vickery: Please come find me and stay connected. So my website is VickeryAndCo.com, and you can find the socials there. I actually am only on a couple of socials. I'm on TikTok and Blue Sky and Substack. That's it. I just added Substack, and I'm having some fun. I'm playing, I'm writing for the sake of writing instead of writing for the sake of running my business, which is interesting and freeing and terrifying, but in the right way. And then,

(47:53) Kim Romain: You just added Substack.

(47:56) Louise Neil: Thanks.

(48:08) Heather Vickery: Like, look, if you've got questions or you're curious, every Tuesday at 12 p.m. Central, I do an Ask Me Anything office hour. It's free. You just have to register so that we can send you the link. And I just, you can come with a question or you can just come because you maybe you liked me and you want to know me better, or you want to make friends and get, come and hang out.

(48:27) Kim Romain: Love it, love it, love it. And you have a podcast or two. Okay, all right.

(48:29) Heather Vickery: I just have one right now, just one. Yeah. The show's called Was It Chance? I co-host it with my sweet friend, Alan Seals. And we interview successful creatives about the intentional risks they've taken on their path to creative success. We are silly and we are fun. And it sometimes is ridiculous, but it's always deep and it's always filled with passion and excitement and cool stories. And we just, we have a blast. It's like literally my favorite thing I do.

(48:58) Kim Romain: It's, you feel the joy listening to it. I will tell you that much. Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

(49:02) Heather Vickery: Thank you for saying that.

(49:03) Louise Neil: I love it.

(49:05) Heather Vickery: He opens every episode with me laughing, because he always makes me laugh as soon as we start talking. I know we did that today, maybe it's a me thing, shit.

(49:12) Kim Romain: Sounds familiar.

(49:13) Louise Neil: You...

(49:16) Kim Romain: Well, I will say it went more often than not. Louise and I start these episodes laughing as well. So yeah, it's a good thing. It's a beautiful thing to do in the world. More joy, more laughter.

(49:27) Heather Vickery: Yes!

(49:29) Louise Neil: Thanks everyone for tuning in today, and thank you, Heather. It's such a great conversation today.

(49:35) Heather Vickery: Thank you guys for having me.

(49:37) Kim Romain: Okay, everyone, take care.

(49:39) Heather Vickery: Bye.

(49:40) Louise Neil: Bye for now.

(49:41) Louise Neil: And that's all for this week's episode of the Empowered and Embodied Show. We hope today's episode has sparked something within you. Remember, we're all on this journey together. If something did resonate with you today, why not share it with a friend who might need to hear it too? You can find us everywhere you listen to podcasts. Don't forget to subscribe so you never miss an episode. And if you're feeling generous, leave a review. Your feedback not only helps others find the show, but also helps us understand what's most valuable to you. Until next time, be kind to yourself, stay curious, and remember, we're walking right alongside you. Thanks for being part of our community.