Money, Shame & Self-Worth: A Healing Conversation with Rachel Duncan

Why does talking about money feel so hard? In this episode, Kim and Louise are joined by financial and art therapist Rachel Duncan of The Money Healing Club to unpack the tangled emotions so many of us carry around money.

Together, we explore:

• How shame shows up in our financial stories
• The cultural and systemic roots of money avoidance
• Why budgeting isn’t always the first step
• How art therapy can unlock healing and rewire old beliefs
• The intersection of nervous system regulation and financial well-being

Rachel shares a gentle and radically compassionate approach to money that centers self-trust, creativity, and community. Whether you’ve struggled with scarcity, felt like you’re “bad with money,” or simply want a new way to relate to your finances, this conversation offers both insight and relief.

“The more money you have, the more you think about money. Safety doesn’t come from having more; it comes from knowing how to be with it.”  - Rachel Duncan

Key Moments:

00:00 – Welcome and Introductions

03:55 – Let’s Talk About Money Shame

06:18 – Why We Don’t Talk About Money

09:10 – The History of Women, Money, and Pockets

13:06 – Generational Scarcity and Self-Fulfilling Scripts

20:08 – Money, Community, and Financial Activism

24:28 – Blending Financial Therapy with Art Therapy

29:04 – Somatic and Visual Processing for Money Trauma

31:32 – Why Budgeting Isn’t the First Step

36:13 – The Psychology of Poverty and Present-Moment Survival

39:23 – Economic Ecosystems and Recession Mindset

43:56 – Guided Visualization: Money as a Creature

49:07 – Closing Reflections and Gentle Invitations

51:06 – Final Thoughts and Thank You

Connect with Rachel:

• moneyhealingclub.com
• The Money Healing Club Podcast
• Rachel’s free mindful spending email course

Join a circle of changemakers committed to leading with purpose, presence and ease inside Kim's Rising Visionaries mentorship program.

Reclaim your career and confidence during midlife through Louise's Rise & Redefine program.

If you’re loving this show, come check out the Feminist Podcasters Collective, where creators like us are uplifting diverse voices and driving meaningful change. If you’re looking for new shows to fill your feed, head to https://feministpodcasterscollective.com to explore everything we have to offer.

Transcript

Empowered and Embodied Show

Episode 171 - Money, Shame & Self-Worth: A Healing Conversation with Rachel Duncan

Kim Romain (01:39) Well, hello, hello, hello, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Empowered and Embodied show. I am one of your co-hosts, Kim Romain, joined as always by my amazing co-host.

Louise Neil (01:50) That's me, the other co-host. I'm Louise. And today, such a wonderful guest. We're gonna have a great conversation. I'm so excited.

Rachel Duncan (01:59) Hi, I'm Rachel Duncan. I'm a financial therapist and I'm so happy to be here. Thank you.

Kim Romain (02:04) Rachel, we are so excited to have this conversation with you today and to dive into all the yummy deliciousness that you're going to bring with it. So I'm going to let the world know a little bit about you and then we'll dive into our conversation. So Rachel Duncan is, as she said, a financial therapist and art therapist. So both financial and art therapy and founded the Money Healing Club with a revolutionary vision, creating a soft landing spot in the often harsh world of personal finance. While conventional financial education barks on about willpower and accountability, Rachel embraces the radical notion that we learn best where we feel safe, welcomed, and permitted to both struggle and grow. I felt that to my core. Rachel has a unique blend of practical money guidance illuminated by creative insights from her art therapy background, creating a transformative space where financial healing happens through creativity, education, community, and compassion. Rachel also hosts the very wonderful Money Healing Club podcast, a place to talk about the things we don't say when we talk about money. Rachel, again, welcome, welcome, welcome. And I know we're going to get into all the juicy bits of like this blending of art therapy and financial therapy and what it all means and how we start to talk about money in a way that can feel okay to us, but I would love to start the conversation from a place that doesn't feel all juicy and good. I would actually like to talk about this place of shame that comes from money. Like, so much of us walk around feeling shame because of our relationship with money or because we don't understand money or because we don't have enough money or we're not, whatever. So I'd love to just open it up from that place. Cause I know we're get into all the juicy, delicious, yummy, nom, nom.

Rachel Duncan (04:02) Shame is plenty juicy. Like, let's start there and it's the number one word. Sometimes I'll start my workshops. What's the number one word people associate with money, at least in my work? And it is shame. And it really comes to, am I supposed to know how to do this? Right? That's the question. And we have this double whammy that like, we're not supposed to talk about money. It's like assumed that we're supposed to know, but we don't have personal finance education baked into the school system. We're not supposed to talk about it at parties, but we're just supposed to figure it out on our own. And if you need help, like, is there something wrong with you? And then it's all emotional and it's weird and deep. And then you look around and everyone looks like, quote unquote, it looks like they have it together. And because you do too, like we all look like we have it together. And so often what I think takes us to a place of needing some real help or this feeling really emotional is that my outsides don't match my insides. And we think that everyone else has a figure down. So that is this of this place of financial therapy, which is a small but growing niche of mental health services, can really converge that gap of like, there could have been some personal finance education that you missed, and that's understandable because we're not allowed to talk about this thing. Let's, so let's, there's a learning part, but really more importantly, there is an emotional component of how do you think of yourself as a person with money, right? A lot of folks say, I'm bad with money. And my first question is, who told you that? You got that from somewhere. You know, and I'm sorry that you got that from somewhere, but this is a pretty learnable thing. It's actually not that complicated. I mean, there are complicated aspects of money, but basic personal finance, you know, we're talking first grade level of math here. So I'm not saying that if you don't feel good with money that you're by any way deficient. It just means you have not been allowed the conversations. And it's a real tragedy in our society that we've not been allowed to talk about it, to share it with our friends, to talk about it within families. So that is the place where I receive people is in this really shame saturated state.

Kim Romain (06:18) Why don't we talk about it?

Louise Neil (06:19) Yeah. Yeah.

Rachel Duncan (06:22) Why don't we talk about it? I know. Well, I mean, I've got my ideas if you want to talk about white patriarchy. White patriarchy doesn't want us to talk about it, right? And I mean, it'd be interesting. There's so much to do, like a deep dive in the history about. It's also very particular cultural, you think, to North America. My husband is from Ukraine and it's much more, oh, what's your work? Oh, I'm a developer. What's your salary? Blah, blah, blah. That's actually, in other parts of the world, it's more open to talk about personal finance. It's very cultural. So here, I'm in the United States, both are in Canada. We do think there's a cultural thing led by white patriarchy that we, know, the little people aren't supposed to talk about it because then they would know how effed up the system is, is my feeling.

Louise Neil (07:11) Yeah, there's a lot of like keeping up with the Joneses that happens, right? Really deeply with money. And we put out this either by design or by purpose, for protection really of like, this is where I'm at. And you're right, it doesn't often match. Yeah.

Rachel Duncan (07:31) All roads lead to safety and we as a species are safe when we're in a group and so we will pretty much do anything to belong. Whether it's dressing like your friends, having the same types of cars and houses as your friends, it's all, if we think about like the biology of it is we are so wired to belong, we will go to great lengths to make sure we belong because that actually like equates our safety. So that's this whole keeping up with the Joneses thing. I saw this great thing a while ago, that the Joneses aren't as rich as you think they are. It's the other thing. Just like, because you're someone else's Joneses. You absolutely are. We all are right. And so we're all like looking up and trying to level up to this like imaginary arbitrary standard. But really it comes from I want to belong. I want to be safe.

Kim Romain (08:20) Well, that place of belonging and fitting in, and I know, Louise, we've talked a lot about that.

Louise Neil (08:25) Yeah, and you said something in the intro there too that I thought was like, was really, really resonated. Kim, you got shivers too around this permission to struggle. I thought like, wow, we can struggle with money?

Rachel Duncan (08:40) You

Kim Romain (08:45) Hmm?

Rachel Duncan (08:46) All have you learned? I mean you go you both could think about like where's an example where you learned something important and there wasn't struggle? Right? Was it was it your most difficult classes in high school where you learned the most? You know either about the topic or about yourself? Like if you think about it, yeah you know the the journey if it was all paved you wouldn't notice it right?

Kim Romain (09:10) As you were talking and kind of explaining your views on why we don't talk about it, I kept envisioning my, so I have an undergrad in theater and I kept envisioning my costuming classes where depending on where we were in history, women weren't allowed to have pockets even, which is where the pocket book came from because we would have our handbag, we'd have our purse to put things in, but because we weren't allowed to even hold money, we weren't allowed to have pockets.

Rachel Duncan (09:47) I think about that a lot with person, I hate person. Is that like, I can't even be close to my money, I to be over there in a thing that I lose. And all these guys just have it like right on their hip. Isn't that interesting? But like that's what's expected? Like even like we have a distance as women with our money. Yeah. So big time. Yeah.

Kim Romain (10:04) So that shame is baked in.

Rachel Duncan (10:08) We're like all letting it sink in. Well, and here's the thing is that women were owned. It's the other thing. Of course. Why would you let like a pet have money? Right. So this is the history we're coming from. You would. Okay. I don't know. I would not let my cats.

Kim Romain (10:11) I know. Sure, I'd let my dog have money. Absolutely. What's cause they're cats?

Louise Neil (10:30) Things they

Rachel Duncan (10:31) Because

Louise Neil (10:31) would spend it on.

Rachel Duncan (10:33) They're

Kim Romain (10:34) Exactly.

Louise Neil (10:34) You

Rachel Duncan (10:36) This is the history that not that long ago that we come from. And I think about history a lot too. I love thinking about that, about like the costuming and the things we wear and the things we're allowed to. I did a deep dive on the history of debt, for example. I mean, 150 years ago, you would be imprisoned in this country for not repaying a debt. Imprisoned. What, four generations ago? Like not that long ago. So I think we have a multi-generational trauma that we carry from dealing with money has been traditionally really dangerous for most folks. It's, you know, and so I think that sense of danger and I mean, money has to do with so much of our survival nowadays, right? So it's all, it feels very new. It feels like if we back way up and look at like human civilization, this whole idea that we all, you know, can earn money and make choices about how we spend it and borrow it and invest it, like is so baby, baby new. We're really coming into a new age of that. And so I think this awkwardness and the struggle and the darkness is part of the growing pains of us needing to now interact with something that has traditionally been really, really dangerous to do that.

Louise Neil (11:47) And man is it painful. Like it feels really painful.

Rachel Duncan (11:51) Yeah. Do you think the pain, I mean, I think the pain is we sort of have to deal with, we're expected to deal with it on our own, right? That add the shame part adds to the painfulness, right? I have to just sit here on my own, second guess things, go into like a doom spiral, you know, about it, worried I'm gonna be judged. I mean, I talk with some folks where, and I carry this a little bit too, where the real deep dark secret is even though I know I need more money, I don't know what I'd do with it if I had it. I'm afraid I'd be judged for messing it up. And I think for a lot of particularly women who I work with, that's a thing, that is a soft thing, but it's not spoken. Right? Like that's why if there's $500 in my account, I'm itching to spend it because actually I feel like I'll F it up if I leave it in there.

Louise Neil (12:39) That is really interesting to have this battle, this internal battle around scarcity and abundance. And it's like, ooh, it's scarce. It's all these words, right? Hard to come by, right? Like it's tough. And even if it wasn't tough, even if it did come my way, even if I wasn't so scarce and I had some abundance, too much abundance, right? Like I wouldn't know what to do with it all.

Rachel Duncan (13:06) And I think we're like expecting ourselves to go from A to Z. There's like a lot in between and actually I talked a lot in my own podcast about like, okay, we have this script, like there's never enough. For example, that's a common one. Probably handed down from your parents, new grandparents, and great grandparents. Probably came from historical truth. There truly was a time when there wasn't enough, right? Again, like money equals safety. And so that's kind of like in your bones is that's the default. And that's a hard one truth. They're willing to do a survival. When you know there isn't enough, then you gotta get creative about how you're gonna get your needs met and your next meal and stay safe. So that's a truth, but then it's sort of like the historical reality then becomes identity. There's never enough and there never will be, or we are people who never have enough. So it's this really unfortunate game of telephone, where now it's become part of the identity and sometimes self-fulfilling prophecy. So what we gotta do is take that, because it's really important, like, yeah, I think I think about abundance all day, but the fact is, hey, we look at the stock market, all of our money could be gone tomorrow. Yeah, that's the truth. I hope not, but that like, okay, even though I know that there is risk in money, I am smart enough to learn some practices that will help me feel safe. Or I will safeguard myself in X, Y, and Z ways, right? This is how we're speaking to and rewriting these inherited scripts that came from like reality, like historical hardship, and turn it into a thing that is more flexible and current for today. And I had this little hang up about the word abundance, y'all. I don't know. How does that word strike you? I mean, I don't know. I think there's a lot there. I think it means really different things to different people. I'm wondering, Louise, you brought up the word abundance. What does that mean to you?

Louise Neil (14:58) For me, it's actually just a mindset. It has nothing to do with the dollars or cents that are in my pocket or my purse. It has to do with how I see and how I feel about what's currently going on. I strongly believe money is called currency for a reason and that it flows. So, yeah, to me, abundance is just an opening of that current that runs through me. Scarcity is a dam that comes down and says it has to stop for all kinds of reasons, right? But for me, that's what those two words mean is really more like a flow versus a pinch point or a bottleneck. Yeah.

Rachel Duncan (15:48) Possibility, yeah, yeah. Flexibility, possibility, all of those things, yeah. Kim, I'm wondering what that, yeah, what does that word mean to you?

Kim Romain (15:50) Yeah.

Louise Neil (15:50) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Kim, how about you?

Kim Romain (15:59) So it's interesting because abundance to me is also used not in the same way, but in the same way as resilience is. It is used as, this is something that you should know and you should embody, right? You should already have the ability to feel abundant. And so I feel like in that way, it has been weaponized, right? You should...

Rachel Duncan (16:09) Hmm.

Kim Romain (16:25) Good for you, you're resilient. That's been weaponized. So abundance, when we again, don't, we're not receiving abundance from the outside. We're experiencing abundance as a vibrational alignment and internal state of abundance. So to me, abundance doesn't show, yes, I can have an abundance of stuff and an abundance of money. That is a descriptor though.

Rachel Duncan (16:41) Like an internal state.

Kim Romain (16:55) When I am experiencing abundance, it is an internal feeling, much like gratitude and love. It vibrates at that same level. But it's not about manifesting abundance. Sure, and I do have my own thoughts on manifesting. Manifesting doesn't come without action. But I feel like it has become one of those things that in our vernacular, in our sound bite mindset coaching world has become something that has become weaponized, right? Like just sit around and think about abundance and you shall have it. It's like, no, come on, stop it.

Rachel Duncan (17:29) Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think you both have set your own flavor on that word. And I think it is important to like, am I limiting myself? Do I have a family script where I'm like, I'll only make this much and da da. I think it's important to be like, there's possibility. There is possibility to earn more or to change some amount of practices. And I think some of my hang up is just not specific enough. Because when we're talking money is both energetic and incredibly concrete. So like, you know, when someone says that, says, oh, I want to have an abundance mindset. I'm like, do you have a specific income goal? When it comes to money, like, that's the thing is that money doesn't understand this word just abundance. What does that mean? You want more of me? Well, how much more? Give me, give me specifics. Yeah, exactly. How are you going to take that action? Like, that's what money wants from us. I money wants some

Louise Neil (17:59) Yeah.

Kim Romain (18:15) Mm-hmm.

Rachel Duncan (18:23) Want some specific containers. Cause it's like, what are you asking for? And sometimes I think when we say abundance, that is code for like, I want to have so much money. I don't have to worry about money. And I can understand that whole a lot. Of course. I want everyone to like be safe. But what's interesting is the more money you have, like actually the, like the more you end up thinking about money. I'm like, you know, I want to have so much money that I can just spend whatever I want is, um, I think also a dangerous road to go down. And so sometimes I just kind of like, like to peel back the layers a little bit about like, what does an abundance mindset mean to you? Because I think it means like an abundant lifestyle, which kind of has a Pinterest look. And so I kind of question that, you know, but I think you're right when we talk about abundance on the outside, right? It's the vacations and the clothing and the cars. I don't find that to be an abundance mindset. It's so exterior, like you both pointed out.

Kim Romain (18:26) Mm-hmm.

Louise Neil (19:02) Mmm. Yeah.

Rachel Duncan (19:15) So it depends who's saying it and where they're getting that from. And I find it just not specific enough to take, to then be able to take some action with that word that state means for you.

Kim Romain (19:25) Yeah. Yeah. Again, manifestation comes with action. It's not just putting things on your Pinterest board or creating a vision board. Now, I love vision boards, but the reason I love vision boards is it gives me to viscerally respond to. There we go. I got those words all out.

Louise Neil (19:26) Yeah. Yeah.

Rachel Duncan (19:34) Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah, I mean, in my art therapy background, absolutely. And it's, there's some subconscious stuff that works. Like, you do it because it works, too. It's a very practical nature. Like, it does, it does work. Yeah, because it's opening up possibilities, right? There are things that I want. I am not as stuck as I might think I am. And, you know, not to like disregard the institutional barriers that folks have. That's very, very real. You know, we also want to make sure we're not like,

Kim Romain (19:47) I hear.

Rachel Duncan (20:08) Saying it's like bootstraps or it's all up to you because this is also really about community care, right? Because the other thing is like, okay, you have your own vision board. Who is supporting you in your vision board? Can we have a shared vision board? Can it be seen by many people instead of, you know, in your own little closet? Because this is all of this stuff. I think money really needs community action. Again, back to this like isolation thing. I think we're really limited if we try to do this all isolated. There's the first step of financial activism is starting to talk about money. This, you know, us right now, the three of us are financial activists. We're starting to talk about money and the thing that we're not supposed to do.

Louise Neil (20:20) Mm-hmm.

Kim Romain (20:48) Well, that's like, I mean, again, Louise, you know, all the work that you're doing around menopause in the workplace, right? You're talking about something that we're not allowed to talk about, right? I'm talking about self and individualism. We're not allowed to talk about ourselves. We're all team oriented. Now I'm not saying teams aren't important. Teams are important. Communities are important. Absolutely. But if you don't have self as you go into them, then what do you have? And we've been so externally focused in all of these areas that we don't get an opportunity to have the conversations so we can figure out, right? How does money impact me? How does time impact me? How does my menopause impact me? How do I impact me?

Louise Neil (20:54) Has, that's right. Yeah. Yeah.

Louise Neil (21:34) Right. Well, there it's it's it's so often times out in the world, like it's so prescriptive, like there's this way to deal with your money. There's this way to deal with your menopause. There's this way to deal with like yourself and get your act together or write like or how you show up in spaces like it sounds like it's like, well, there's just a one way to do it. It's very prescriptive. And yet it's so not which

Rachel Duncan (21:45) Mm. Mm-hmm. No.

Louise Neil (22:01) I think is part of the struggle that people have is that we go out looking for answers and we're looking for the answer and we keep looking and looking and looking and there's not an answer. There's many answers to what our core is really desiring.

Rachel Duncan (22:09) Yeah. And just the variety of our culture and our experiences. Yeah, whenever I see financial people, they the 50-30-20 rule. Yeah, it only works if you have a certain income. That pie does not break down for most folks. I think every time there's someone out there like, well, just do this, especially with money. If that works for them, good for them. I bet that works for a handful of folks. But I think what's sort of

Kim Romain (22:23) But that's not what were talking

Louise Neil (22:42) Yeah.

Rachel Duncan (22:50) The mystery that I engage in is I have no idea. I mean, I have a few rules of thumb. Let's just say that. Sure, sure, some guidelines. But even those have been challenged. I think it's personal finance is very personal. And just like we're saying, the self-led energy is your best financial tool, right? If, know, if saving for or going on a vacation without accumulating more debt is like number one for you instead of buying a house. I think that's right, this is fine. Like it's okay to define things or to rent instead of buying, right? We're all untangling this whole pressure of the American dream and buying homes is not, at least for my generation, not realistic and not gonna be available to everyone. So, you know, it's a rethinking of the life that we've maybe were the bill of goods we were sold by our parents and the kind of life that we actually do want to live. Like, for example, I don't love traveling and I feel like I'm a big rebel because everyone's supposed to love traveling. And right now in the season of my life, I don't, it's not a high priority. And you I think that's a, we need to honor that or like going out to expensive brunches with my friends. I, that's a generational thing that I'm not behind. And I just made my priorities are elsewhere and it's so important. And so it's both self led and then bringing it, you know, finding your community in there, finding your, your weirdos in the wilderness is, is I think we talked about before we recorded, like, where do we find our weirdos? And having that self-lift thing, you can feel like a real rebel. It's like a real rebellious journey, actually, that journey itself. If you find that with yourselves or your clients that like, oh, I'm not doing the things like the other people said or whatever, all that, it starts to feel good once you tap into that self-energy. That's the essential part of money is the self-energy. I'm like, that just didn't feel right. Trust that, you know? Absolutely trust those instincts.

Kim Romain (23:29) Thank you.

Kim Romain (24:28) Mm-hmm. So how does this idea, I'm fascinated by, right, I have my ideas, but how do financial therapy and art therapy blend in your world?

Rachel Duncan (25:03) Well, it's that thing about how do we talk about the thing we can't talk about? Well, sometimes there aren't words. So my training is to bring in image making, image making as well as image reflection. So like, well, for example, like a theme that comes up a lot, if I could share with you guys is like, okay, I'm 45 years old, but I still feel like a kid about. So tell me more about that kid, right? Where does that kid live? What do they look like, right? We start to get into that internal self energy and we identify that. Are you familiar with internal family systems? Right, so we identify. Where's the part of you that feels like a kid about not being identified? And sometimes we work just in the mind's eye and or we make an image. Where does that kid live, right? Oh, right down on the corner of the paper. Oh, they're surrounded by blue. Yeah, right. And we connect. What does that kid really want? What is that kid worried about? Right? And it's usually about acceptance or I was put down by a teacher, da da da, right? We're not really talking money at all. We're talking about that part of us that got a little bit stopped in time. Because often my clients will relate to there was a one incident, right? Oh, no one told me that there was sales tax. And then I felt like a dummy because I didn't know that and I overspent my allowance. And so I just hold there, right, in a time capsule, put in the ground. And that's where I lived. Or, I was offered a thousand dollar limit credit card in college that I was able to take out without talking to anybody, and I thought it was free money because it basically was free money. And I erect my credit and I am 28 and I'm still building it from those mistakes from back then. So we go back to that person. Where are they? And we make the image. What does the image say? And now we have an external thing to dialogue with, to relate to, and then to modify. So what I love is an asking, can you ask the image what else it needs right now? It needs a shelter. It needs a nest. It needs a window. It needs to be redrawn, right? Sometimes recreating the art or if a client's like, tear it out and put it somewhere new in a new environment, whatever, right? There's no right answer. And so then that's the manifesting, right? That's the taking action. You can actually, with art making, take action with it. So we can reflect a thing that there are no words for, start to experience it as an external thing. And now I am an agent of change. And now I can relate to it. What do you need and give it to the thing? How does that thing feel getting its needs met? That, that, that. How do you feel getting your needs met? Right? That's what we're really saying, but it's the thing. It's the thing. We're externalizing it. Now it feels, now it feels like it can take a nap. Now it feels like it can go outside and play. And what happens is then all those parts start maturing. They start catching up. Sometimes it's a very fast process. Sometimes it's a slow process. Tends to be emotional, let people know, make sure you have some time afterwards to process, because image making is like that, but we're tapping into the right side of the brain in this, where personal finance usually only talks to the left side of the brain. But there's so much the right side of our brain is actually holding onto. That's when we say, have a money block. That's the right side of the brain being like, I feel trauma here. Well, I don't don't do that. And so there's no amount of after spreadsheets is going to get that side of your brain to catch up because it is like danger, danger, danger, danger. And you're not going to do anything with money if you're in fight or fight mode or you're to make decisions that really, you know, hurt you. That's kind of it's it's this externalizing and then working with process and the growth happens quick, like usually very quick. Lots of tears usually. It's cathartic experience, but that's how I tend to work with folks visually.

Kim Romain (25:39) Yeah.

Kim Romain (28:29) Mm-hmm.

Kim Romain (29:04) I hear so much of the somatic processing through that as well, where, right, one of the things that I love doing is take that object, right, whether it's a found object or a made object, this drawing, and bring it close to you. How does that feel? Put it further away from you. How does that feel? What do you want to tear it up? Do you want to ball it up? Do you want to hide it? Right. What are those things that you can do just with that drawing?

Rachel Duncan (29:26) Yeah, in your physical space, right? And in art therapy, we say that the art is an extension of the body. So you treat it with all the consent and reverence that you would with your body, right? Especially if like, if I'm in person with somebody. But yeah, set your image in the room in a way that feels right to you. That's great. Or set your image across from you, get some distance from it. What do you notice now that it's five feet away from you, right? And that kind of stuff. So good.

Kim Romain (29:29) Yeah. Mm-hmm. I find that to be so powerful when, right? Because when it feels so close, when it's so inside of us and we're re-experiencing the trauma over and over again because we're feeling it and it's there. So bringing that outside of the body and then allowing ourselves not just outside of the body, but to bring some distance now, right? Because yeah, yeah, yep.

Rachel Duncan (30:16) And agency, distance and agency. I am the artist. Yeah. I mean, this is trauma recovery. Exactly. This thing that was so scary that was telling me that it was all doom and gloom, I am now with. And guess what? I'm safe. I may be with a facilitator on the other side of the screen or other side of the room that is helping me feel safe. I'm actually safe in this moment with this thing that I've been secretly terrified of. That is trauma healing. That's it. And things start knitting together. Things just start knitting together. So, you some folks come in like, well, shouldn't I start with a budget? And like, we'll get there and you'll know when you're ready. And then, yeah, maybe a month, maybe two months later, like, yeah, I just did that thing, it no big deal. Like then the nuts and bolts become a lot less effortful when that part of you that was sounding all the alarms has had their needs met and could calm down.

Kim Romain (30:23) Yeah.

Kim Romain (31:09) It's nearly impossible to do it when you're... I find that to be a fascinating thing is when people are like, no, but I want to attack this thing that I'm having so much problem dealing with in my day-to-day life, but I'm going to bring it to you and we're going to deal with it together, right? It's like, we have some work to do before we can get to that point because otherwise you're just going to continue to be in that traumatized state.

Rachel Duncan (31:32) Well, and guess what? If we could do that first thing, you would have already done it and you wouldn't be here. There's a reason why you needed to hire a professional. It hasn't worked out on your own. Am I showing how the sausage is made in our industry?

Kim Romain (31:37) 100 %

Louise Neil (31:48) Hehehehehe

Kim Romain (31:49) I love it. Well, because I think that that helps because I think most people walking around, at least in my experience, most people that I've talked to, whether it's money or other things, but particularly with money, feel they are the only ones going back to that shame, right? I'm the only one with this. And yet most people have something to do with money that leaves them in this traumatized state. And so if we can normalize that, again, having a conversation that we're not having elsewhere, if we can normalize that, yeah, most of us feel unxty when we're dealing with money. And if it was easy, if we didn't have that feeling, sure, we could all be doing the budgeting thing right now. We could all be doing the whatever thing that would work for us. But we have to work through that trauma. We have to work through that pain, as Louise said, first.

Rachel Duncan (32:47) I just put something together when you're saying that. Like we're talking about the externalizing stuff. I think we focus on the external when the inside is too scary. Right, so like that's how these things relate. It's like, okay, the inside stuff was too scary because it's like alert, alert, and they're like, well, but if I get that purse, everything's good. So it's like, it's externalizing and outsourcing that healing to an external thing. And that's why it doesn't last. We also can talk about dopamine and stuff, but like that is also why that doesn't last is because it's a, can't do outside in. It just is an inside out approach and it's a messier process. It's messier to do inside out, but this is the only way to have lasting change. Yeah. So like, go ahead.

Kim Romain (32:52) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Kim Romain (33:22) Mm-hmm.

Louise Neil (33:26) Yeah. No, like fascinating conversation because like we it's it's like we're trying to solve a math problem, right? Personal finance is math, right? Like you said, grade one math. And so we're trying to solve a math problem and we don't have all of the information on each side of the equal sign, right? Like we don't have all of those variables. And so we try to we don't know why one plus one is not. Equaling to and it's because that's not it wasn't a plus sign, right? There's some brackets in there and then there was a minus I like we don't see the whole picture and we try to really We think we have the basic understanding And we're missing a whole big part of this a whole big part

Rachel Duncan (34:14) Well, and I think, if you imagine a kid, it's like a kid sitting down to take a math test who's failed the other math test and has been told they're bad at math, and then needs to sit down and do it again. Like, can you imagine? That's the child in all of us. It's like, I'm not good at this. That, the buck just also stops there. You can't sit down and do something well that you have convinced yourself and that others have told you you're not good at. There's no place to start if you've ever like if you imagine just a child like of course they're gonna throw a fit or throw a tantrum or whatever like they're gonna get out of there because they would rather be out of there than but then be seen as a failure and so that's I think why money avoidance is so common. I would rather just get out of there. I'm just gonna avoid it right how many folks look I honestly haven't even opened my account in months and I think I'm out overdrafting and my credit's probably totally tanked because avoiding it is a regulating choice. I avoid it and that trigger is not there. It is a regulating choice, right? And we know of course it like builds up to other problems by not looking at it. When someone says they're, I'm kind of a failure because I avoid your money. No, you are keeping yourself safe, aren't you? Right? It's so understandable.

Kim Romain (34:22) Mm-hmm.

Kim Romain (35:06) Mm-hmm.

Kim Romain (35:23) I love that. So what I love about that is honoring that you have been doing the work from the beginning. You have been working on regulating self prior to diving into all of this other stuff, right? Ignoring, avoiding, pushing it away, whatever, that you are helping yourself. And

Rachel Duncan (35:32) Yes, always. All once.

Kim Romain (35:49) Now you're ready to, or you at least feel cognitively ready to approach that. And so how do we begin to approach that from a regulated state? We need to, right, with some titration and stepping in and doing some, some re-regulating as we go, we have that ability to start to step into doing that other work that feels so scary.

Rachel Duncan (36:13) Well, and I want to talk about also like the psychology of poverty is because when our resources are really scarce our brain literally can only think of survival in the present moment, right? Because that's so much more important than down the road. It's like your body wants to be safe right now. And so when resources are scarce, when life is dangerous, you literally can only think about right now. And so, you know, folks will make money decisions that will make themself safe right now. You're literally not able to think long term when you have literal scarcity going on. So much of, like that's what it talks about, course, politically having basic needs met. But we can't expect ourselves to go through major growth or sit with struggle when our basic needs are being met. And then when our basic needs are met, when we can experience more regulation, then you can start to think long term. You literally can't. I like to help people, like, if we're at zero, first we're learning that maybe talking about money is a little bit okay, right? Or like growing that container just a little bit. And it's like present day stuff, what money choices are happening right now, right? We're doing really right now stuff. And then the timeline gradually, gradually gets longer and longer. So I don't begin talking about retirement planning because we gotta kind of get the right now starting to feel okay. Because also folks tend to make like black and white decisions when they're in that fight or flight mode, that triggered mode. So we have to really honor that triggered state, help that calm down, help that get integrated. Then we can start actually having a view of timeline, but you're just not able to do it if you are living to paycheck to paycheck. That is a heightened nervous system situation when you're living paycheck to paycheck.

Kim Romain (38:02) And we're seeing that even more collectively now with people believe that belief system is there's less money in the world now than there was a year ago. And the reality is there's still the same amount of money in the world now than there was a year ago. It's the way that money is being externally controlled that makes us contract, I think makes us contract and feel like, but we don't have access or we won't have access to money in the future.

Rachel Duncan (38:23) Yeah. Well, we can talk about inflation changes that and all that stuff. I mean, is the economy is kind of this like beast, this amoebic beast, of course, is a literal pulling in. That's what we can feel it. Can't you feel it? I mean, any of us in who are selling our services, we are feeling it, right? So recession, like the tide is a pulling in and doesn't mean necessarily there's less money. I mean, I think you're right, but it's changing. And the economy is an ecosystem and ecosystems go through forest fires. That's one way to think about a recession. It's a kind of a painful, but sometimes needed clearing out that is remarkably regular. It's like every 10 years. So, I mean, this one might be a little bit close, like, you know, it's this, not saying this is easy because this can really devastate a lot of lives, but a lot of ingenuity comes up in possessions. I mean, that's more like economy wide, but it's not all one thing. It's not all, it's not all one thing.

Kim Romain (38:31) Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kim Romain (39:23) Well, and I do find it interesting that they're, right, going back to that, nervous system regulation about it. And to me, what I have found helpful and what I am talking about in the groups where I hear this sparking a lot of almost wildfire discussion of, well, do I burn it down? Do I did it? Whatever rates this panic mode of the same amount of money. Yes, we are dealing with a recession and.

Rachel Duncan (39:42) Yeah.

Kim Romain (39:53) The North American economy staved off the last recession because we collectively through mindset said there's not a recession. And so we didn't behave as though there was a recession. Now we're panicking and we're going into recession because we're responding to it the way that one would expect us to. So I find it to be fascinating that again from this place of are we regulated? If we're regulated our response to our money

Louise Neil (40:04) That's right.

Kim Romain (40:22) becomes more regulated. It becomes, right?

Rachel Duncan (40:27) Yeah, it comes more like it's that externalizing I was talking about with art as well. It's like, okay, money is a thing. There are certain things within your control. Are there some things outside your control, like the market? Yes. Right, identify the things that are in your control and you can focus on that without obsessing. And it's this relating. I talk about, heal your relationship with money is very literal. I really think of money as like a thing in the room with you, like a relationship you would cultivate with a friend and it goes through changes and shifts and things like that. That, I really the nut of it is that money is a safe thing for you to sit with. It makes sense if there are experiences in your life where you had helplessness and fear and danger and money was in the room. Absolutely, is, trauma has probably happened to all of us in some form or another. So that's all very normal. But okay, now here I am present day, what is real? Is this actually a threat? It's a little bit of that ground truth thing. Is there really a bear? Am I just thinking there might be a bear? What is real? A little bit of the fact checking sometimes needs to happen. And then now I'm sitting with it. I'm not running away. Amazing things can happen after, especially that first conversation.

Louise Neil (41:31) Mm-hmm.

Rachel Duncan (41:45) You know, talk, actually talking with somebody if that is something that's, you know, available to you or there's someone in your life that you feel safe having that convo with. One of my favorite things is when a client is like, I actually like my friends wanted to go out to dinner, but I'm really like not wanting to spend as much money going out. And I let them know like that restaurant's kind of expensive. I have a budget, even though like I was like, you can pretend you have a budget, even if you don't, it's okay. You can just say that. And they say it. And then like two other friends are like, my God, I'm trying to do that too. That's amazing. Let's not do that. Let's go on a walk instead. Like it's amazing when we can start and it's scary and it's stretchy to start having these conversations, especially like with our friends or family and not everybody, but a lot of folks will be like, thank you for being so brave. I'm right there with you. But it's because like, I thought you could afford that restaurant too. I thought, yeah, because like, that's what we've always done. So getting that going can really, then we have an empowering experience around something that's been terrifying. That's a huge turning of the ship. And yeah, and so my clients tend to like start feeling all these other benefits in their relationships, in their health, in their job, right? Just from starting to talk about money, this thing that they felt that they've just been dragging on.

Louise Neil (42:53) Yeah, whole getting your insides out, right? And being able to express what's really going on in a safe place. We don't all have that though. We don't all have those people in our spaces where it feels safe. But that's where you come in, right, Rachel? It's like, hey, here's a, right? Well, but here's a safe place to start the conversation. And maybe we do have those people in our

Rachel Duncan (43:08) No. Right, that's what I think. Yeah, yeah.

Louise Neil (43:23) And it just feels unsafe because of the trauma that we're carrying.

Rachel Duncan (43:29) Yeah, and you know you. You know who seems to be a safe person about this. And it doesn't mean like trauma dumping or letting it all out, but like, I'm trying to spend a little less money. Like, how do you do it? Like it could be, you know, a couple like that. It was great. Everyone's got their little, yeah, everyone's got great little tips and tricks. Like, let's start talking about it. It's like my favorite thing about podcasts too is like starting to talk about it. Well, could I share a little art therapy kind of exercise with you too and our listeners? They think I'm along with it. Okay.

Louise Neil (43:33) Yeah.

Kim Romain (43:42) Yeah, just open the conversation.

Louise Neil (43:44) Yeah.

Kim Romain (43:54) Sure?

Louise Neil (43:55) Yeah, yeah.

Rachel Duncan (43:56) All right, so we're just gonna get real quick grounded. I know you guys are like right there, right? Take a little breath. Again, we're shaking it out. Okay. We're just starting to open up to a present state of mind. We're open, receptive. And I'm gonna ask you a question and I want you to pay attention to your first intuitive hit. It might be surprising. I don't want you to second guess it, because it's always right. Okay. I'm going to ask you to picture your money as a creature. Real or imagined. We already have a smile on our face. And that is it. If you are open to share, I would love to hear what your creature is. Kim?

Louise Neil (44:39) What was yours,

Kim Romain (44:40) Go ahead.

Louise Neil (44:40) Kim?

Kim Romain (44:41) Okay. What was mine? The reason I laughed was it's a Phoenix rising from the ashes. She tells the truth. She does.

Rachel Duncan (44:50) Flair for the drama. Like that. Could you tell me more about the image? Could you say more about what was going on?

Kim Romain (44:57) Yeah. So was really interesting because it was, it started by kind of shaking off the ashes and then lifted and then lifted again and then skyrocketed. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Rachel Duncan (45:05) Yeah, it's so quick. You got that smile right after I said my sentence. Isn't that amazing how the right side of our brain works? This is not a language processing. This is an image processing. Yeah. That's why I think you can. Louise, what about you? Would you like to share?

Louise Neil (45:25) Squirrel. Yeah, yeah. It was in the tree, chattering at me.

Rachel Duncan (45:26) Squirrel, yeah. And what was that squirrel up to when he caught it? Was it saying something to you?

Louise Neil (45:37) It was just chattering, you know, as a squirrel. Ooh, maybe it was scolding me a little, you know, I see the squirrel with my dog all the time where it's up there, right? Just kind of like, like chattering away and just, hmm, a little bit out of reach maybe, up there, right? Yeah, just, just chattering away. Yeah, it was interesting.

Rachel Duncan (45:47) Yeah. Squirrels are very protective in that state. Think about when my cats go in the backyard. You know, they chitter away because they're like, uh-uh, don't get, don't get closer. Yeah, it's a protective thing. That's great. So as these images come to you, something you can think about is or relate to this image. Well, number one, make an image about it. Actually draw this out. And another one is to ask that image what it means right now to feel complete. So as...

Louise Neil (46:08) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, interesting.

Rachel Duncan (46:28) Maybe Kim, could you share if you were to ask the phoenix right now? As a response.

Kim Romain (46:33) It wants attention. Yeah, like I said, she does not lie. She wants attention. Yeah.

Rachel Duncan (46:37) It wants attention. Yeah. And in this moment, could you give her that attention 100 % wholeheartedly right now? And notice how she responds.

Kim Romain (46:48) She's she's she's still a phoenix. So she's still in flame. But it went from like a traditional phoenix looking bird to an eagle inside of it to a dove to a sparrow back to a dove. It was like changing birds inside of it. Yeah, it was transmuting.

Rachel Duncan (47:09) So many things, look how many things I am when you pay attention to me. Yeah. Would you please make an image about this? Please, please. Louise, what about you? If you ask the squirrel, there's one thing it needs to feel complete. What does it need?

Kim Romain (47:16) Of course.

Louise Neil (47:27) I, I got a sense that like this, there's a, there's a, there's a cash and nuts, close by, right? And the squirrel is just saying like, it's just, it's just here, right? Like, yeah, it's just here. Yeah, like stop, stop worrying about it. It's, it's just here. Yeah.

Rachel Duncan (47:50) That's that little, don't worry about it.

Louise Neil (47:53) Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, like, what are what are you doing? Like, yeah, what are you doing down there on the ground? Like, I don't know why you're running around like a chicken with your head cut off. It's like, it's all it's just, I got the stash. Like stop. I got this stash. Yeah, I got the stash girl. Like, what are you doing? It's all up here. I've got it. Yeah.

Rachel Duncan (48:07) Stache girl. Wow, it's asking you to center. Yeah, that's beautiful. It's always right. These wonderful nuggets. And this exercise is something I repeat all the time for myself. Every time you check in, it's a different creature usually. And let these things, let these images kind of simmer and do their work. We've now opened up a channel to a subconscious resource for you.

Louise Neil (48:18) Yeah. Yeah.

Rachel Duncan (48:40) Right? And so sometimes things that have felt kind of hot or stressful before start calming down. You'll maybe notice those images come up in your walking life, you know, around and pay attention to these symbols. So I just want to offer that to you guys. Thanks for doing that with me and sharing that with your listeners. I hope so too. Yeah, write to me. Let me know what your creatures are or write to you guys.

Kim Romain (48:57) Thank you. I hope our listeners did along with us because, right? Please do, please do,

Louise Neil (49:06) Yeah, yeah.

Kim Romain (49:07) Please do. This conversation has been so nourishing on so many levels. There's just, I love that there is such a gentle... cool place to enter. Like I'm feeling it like entering a cool pond or a cool, right, some sort of water to just start entering the connection with money and allowing that water to take away some of the fear and allow you to also center in yourself and calm yourself in the midst of it. Yeah. Yeah.

Rachel Duncan (49:44) Yeah, that the unknown is okay. You got it yourself. You it yourself, yeah. We all know more about money than we think we do. Awesome, yeah. Yeah, it was wonderful. Thank you for having me.

Louise Neil (49:55) Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Thank you, Rachel, for being here. Can you let our listeners know, like, where can they get more of this juicy, juicy talk?

Rachel Duncan (50:06) Sure, so everything lives on my website, moneyhealingclub.com. I have a podcast, I have a free mindful spending email course everyone is welcome to, and then all of my resources. The club is a monthly membership where I run groups like this. We're very much running art groups, running nuts and bolts stuff. We have a book club, we have accountability circles, all these little things to help us manage money. And sometimes I run special little groups, I run retreats. So just check out whatever I've got on the and I do some stuff on Instagram at money.

Kim Romain (50:38) Beautiful, beautiful. Again, thank you for bringing your wisdom into this space and for just a delicious conversation today. Just really thank you.

Rachel Duncan (50:47) I, my heart grew as well. I love meeting you all and just that you are just so ready to talk about this and process this. You're my favorite kind of people. So thank you.

Louise Neil (50:58) Yeah. Thank you, Rachel. Thank you, listener, for joining us today. Thanks for tuning in. Take care, everyone. Bye for now.