Learning to Trust Your Body’s Wisdom

Sometimes your body says hell no long before your mind catches up. In this episode of The Empowered & Embodied Show, we go deep into the language of the body... you know, those visceral yeses and no’s that reveal more than logic ever could.

From laughing over quirky Canadian slang that Louise's dad apparently made up and she thought everyone knew about it (“giver tar paper”) to unpacking how emotions, conditioning, and even menopause shape our ability to trust ourselves, this conversation is raw, funny, and deeply real. We explore how alignment, avoidance, and awareness show up in everyday life, and why listening to your body is the ultimate act of self-trust.

What you’ll hear in this episode:

• Why visceral reactions matter (and how to recognize them)
• The difference between speaking from emotion vs. logic
• How avoidance and spiraling signal misalignment
• Trusting your body through midlife, hormones, and change
• Practical ways to reconnect with your body’s wisdom

Join us for a heartfelt, unfiltered conversation about learning to trust yourself one signal at a time.

Key moments:

00:00 – Welcome & introductions

02:26 – Visceral Reactions and Emotional Responses

04:39 – Trusting Your Body's Signals

07:16 – Navigating Yes and No in Conversations

09:44 – The Complexity of Emotions

11:51 – Avoidance and Alignment with Values

17:59 – Navigating Internal Conflicts

20:32 – Emotional Processing and Communication

23:25 – Trusting the Body's Signals

27:23 – Understanding Hormonal Changes

33:00 – The Language of the Body

36:25 – The Journey of Self-Discovery

Join Kim at the Drop the Mic UnSummit - Sept 15-18, 2025.
https://dropthemic.teachery.co/buy?a=nYpjqnTp

Join a circle of changemakers committed to leading with purpose, presence and ease inside Kim's Rising Visionaries mentorship program.

Reclaim your career and confidence during midlife through Louise's Rise & Redefine program.

If you’re loving this show, come check out the Feminist Podcasters Collective, where creators like us are uplifting diverse voices and driving meaningful change. If you’re looking for new shows to fill your feed, head to https://feministpodcasterscollective.com to explore everything we have to offer.

Transcript

The Empowered & Embodied Show

Episode #: 174 

Release Date: August 26, 2025

Title: Learning to Trust Your Body’s Wisdom 

Hosts: Kim Romain & Louise Neil 

(01:45) Kim Romain: Hello, hello, hello, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Empowered and Embodied show. I am one of your co-hosts, Kim Romain, joined as always by the lovely and wonderful...

(01:56) Louise Neil: The other co-host, Louise. That's me.

(01:58) Kim Romain: Yeah, yeah. Giver.

(02:01) Louise Neil: Giver. That's what they said right before we went live. It's like, let's go, let's giver. Is that a word in your vocabulary? Do you say giver?

(02:09) Kim Romain: What, over the last four years, I know what it means now. That is not a word that we use in the States. No, no. I mean, I suppose somebody probably said it at some point, like, no, no.

(02:13) Louise Neil: Is that it? Let's giver. Ha ha ha!

(02:23) Kim Romain: I can't even make that up. No.

(02:29) Louise Neil: It's funny. It's interesting how we're like, yeah, these little sayings and words that I would never think of not being universal. Everybody knows what giver. Doesn't everybody say it?

(02:43) Kim Romain: No, and not everybody knows what a tuque is either.

(02:46) Louise Neil: I know, that's too bad. They should. They should. It's a winter hat. Like, come on, people.

(02:49) Kim Romain: I don't disagree. Okay, so why did that come through when I was like, "Okay, are you ready to record?" You're like, "Yeah, giver." Like, why did that come through for you? How did you know that was the word for the moment?

(03:06) Louise Neil: Well, I didn't really even think about it. It just came out. Like, it was, it was exciting. Like, yeah, let's, let's go. I want to have this conversation today. So let's get it started. And that's just the word that comes out. It was, I don't know, maybe it's a word that belongs to a feeling, right? That's just the feeling.

(03:28) Kim Romain: Well, yeah, because you said it was exciting, right?

(03:31) Louise Neil: Yeah, yeah, let's go.

(03:33) Kim Romain: Instead of, "Sure, let's go."

(03:36) Louise Neil: You...

(03:37) Kim Romain: Which is maybe not so exciting. It's not that oomph, right?

(03:43) Louise Neil: Yeah, yeah, it is exciting. I love being here. Let's, let's giver. Giver tar paper. How about that one?

(03:51) Kim Romain: What did you just say? Giver tar paper? What the hell is tar... I mean, I know what tar paper is in reality, but what is it in terms of a saying?

(03:53) Louise Neil: Giver tar paper means like, let's really go.

(04:06) Kim Romain: Giver tar paper.

(04:07) Louise Neil: Yes. Please help me out, dear listener, if you've heard of this word before, this little phrase. I don't think I made it up.

(04:08) Kim Romain: Cool. Giver tar paper. I feel, I feel like I'm on the range somewhere. I feel like Laura Ingalls Wilder is going to just wander up to me and we're just going to be old, like old timey folk.

(04:28) Louise Neil: Ha ha ha! No, no, it might be something that you would hear on Schitt's Creek, because Roland would say it, I imagine. That's where that would come.

(04:39) Kim Romain: I don't remember ever hearing that. He may have, but I didn't really listen to any words he said either. I feel like every time he's on screen, I just zone out.

(04:44) Louise Neil: Thanks.

(04:50) Kim Romain: It's so funny. It's funny because like, I had a visceral reaction when you said that. I was like, "What are you saying?" Like, my whole body was like, "Hold up. I don't understand your words." I feel like not that I should understand them, it caused a visceral reaction. It was really interesting. I was like, "Tar paper. That doesn't sound like something we should be talking about." It just feels wrong.

(04:55) Louise Neil: You...

(05:13) Kim Romain: It's tar paper. I don't know how wrong it could be, but it's weird.

(05:16) Louise Neil: I can't say it's not weird, but it certainly means something to a lot of people. It means let's go. Let's go right now.

(05:29) Kim Romain: Okay, so...

(05:29) Louise Neil: I'm gonna look this up. Okay, keep, keep talking.

(05:31) Kim Romain: Tar paper aside, no, no, no, but I wanna know here, like, have you ever had that moment where, and I'm sure you have, where somebody says something and it is like the needle goes off the record, you go, "I just felt something and my body was like a whole hell no."

(05:49) Louise Neil: Mm. So, so really like deeply feeling, deeply feeling it.

(05:56) Kim Romain: Yeah. And it's something like, you know, it's not somebody calling me a bitch or something. Sure. I would have a whole hell no about that too, but like "giver tar paper" was like a whole hell no. I don't know what those words are and I don't feel like we should be saying them. It was really interesting.

(06:13) Louise Neil: That's interesting. Do you like, what's the, what's the pattern? Like when you're when you have that visceral feeling, do you, do let it out? I mean, you let it out a little bit here, but is that something that you would normally do?

(06:27) Kim Romain: I think depending on the context, maybe. There's a definitive answer for you. It's a hundred percent contextual. Like, who's in the room? What are we talking about? Do I feel comfortable, confident and safe to say something in this moment? Yeah, I feel like there have been times. I mean, and again, you know, even with people that I know deeply and love deeply, sometimes they will say things that just like, I have that visceral response and I don't want to continue that part of the conversation. It is a whole body no. And I need to feel resourced and safe to be able to say something here. I right in this context, I did. But yeah, that's, yeah. Is this just me? Is this just because I'm a feely feely person or?

(07:18) Louise Neil: You definitely process through your emotions differently than I do.

(07:23) Kim Romain: Yeah, well, we're designed differently though.

(07:25) Louise Neil: Yeah, yeah. I have a tendency to have those kinds of feelings and then either decide to put them aside because I don't know what they are. And so I'm not going to explore them in the moment. Does it feel like that's something I want to do? So I can put it aside and maybe revisit it later. Maybe. Maybe I forget about it because, right? I don't know, get busy and I don't go back to it. I want to say, I think I rarely... depending on, on the feeling, there's some feelings that I, I will actually rarely speak into. Like, I rarely speak into the nose. Today I was speaking into the yeses all the time. Right? I can speak into the yes. Like, "Yes, that feels good. Yes, let's do that. Yes, I'm excited." Right? Look at me leaning forward. And if you're listening to this, you wouldn't see me leaning forward, but I was leaning forward every time I said yes. To me that's absolutely I'm listening to my body and expressing what's happening, but a no. Not often, not often do I lean into that into the moment.

(08:44) Kim Romain: Why not?

(08:44) Louise Neil: Maybe it has to do a little bit with trust. Like, do I trust that now? I haven't thought about it. So if I hadn't thought about it, can I trust it? I don't often know how to do that. Getting tapped into my body, that's something that I didn't do for many, many years. And so I feel like I'm on the beginning part of that journey. Only the last, you know, five, six years have I started to tap into like, what does that feeling feel like? Where does it come from? Those kinds of things. I would have never, that was all bull honky before.

(09:22) Kim Romain: I'm so used to everybody saying, not everybody, I'm so used to so many people being like, "Wow, that's a bunch of bullshit." Like, the body stuff, the woo-wee stuff. And I'm like, "Really?" Cause if I didn't bring, if I didn't actually share those words publicly, I'm still showing up with all that. Like that's all my data.

(09:39) Louise Neil: Sure. Yeah. Yeah.

(09:43) Kim Romain: And then I look at the hard crunchy number down there too. I use like both.

(09:47) Louise Neil: Right. Yeah, so I think it comes down to trust. Like, can I trust my body to have my back?

(09:53) Kim Romain: Mmm. Can you?

(09:55) Louise Neil: It knows. The body knows. The body, right? It does.

(10:00) Kim Romain: laughing Because she was nodding her head. You were absolutely nodding. And like, as you were going, the nodding was getting bigger.

(10:09) Louise Neil: Ha ha ha.

(10:10) Kim Romain: So your body was responding there.

(10:12) Louise Neil: See, and I don't pay attention to that.

(10:15) Kim Romain: Mmm.

(10:15) Louise Neil: I really don't. I don't pay attention to what's going on outside of me all the time. I was terrible. I've always been terrible. Like I do, I cannot play poker. I don't have a poker face. Those thoughts, ideas that bounce around in my head often show on my face. And I can't like, I can't hide it. When it comes from a thought place, but when it comes from like a visceral feeling, I can. I can stuff it down sometimes to say, "I'm not really sure that I want that feeling from my belly or from my gut to show on my face," because I don't know what that is. I don't know what it's telling me. I don't know why it's saying or feeling, I guess it doesn't really say, but like, why is it acting out or acting up? I don't often know what that is. And so often in situations, I push it aside. I can't say that's healthy. Like, don't get me wrong. Don't think, don't think this is advice I want every dear listener to take is like, "Louise stuffs down her emotions. So we should too." It's like, no, no, it's, it's a habit.

(11:17) Kim Romain: You knew where I was going next!

(11:30) Louise Neil: Conditioning that I have that just says like, I don't often trust that no feeling. And so I put it aside until I can think through it.

(11:41) Kim Romain: It's so interesting. So two things came through for me while you were sharing that. One is the more you talked about feelings, the further back you sat. You were like, "I don't wanna actually wanna talk about this. I don't want to analyze them, be with them. No." So you're very well aware of your nose because like, you physically pull back from them. But the other is this place of...

(11:52) Louise Neil: I don't, I'm dying. Above the sun.

(12:07) Kim Romain: Needing to think about them. Do you need to think about your yeses?

(12:11) Louise Neil: Because it feels good.

(12:13) Kim Romain: So something has to feel good.

(12:15) Louise Neil: Yeah. And I'm a little bit speechless. Yes, generally I think people do. It's like, if it feels good, do that. Lean into that, do that more. I think it's how we're designed. When ice cream tastes good, we have more ice cream, right? We like that feeling. And so when I have that good feeling, it's like, yeah, bring it out, share it.

(12:41) Kim Romain: There's a whole world of emotions and feelings that have nothing to do with feeling good.

(12:47) Louise Neil: Yes.

(12:48) Kim Romain: And that have nothing to do with feeling bad.

(12:50) Louise Neil: Well, we're playing the word game, right? We're using good and bad. And it's like, let's even talk about those words. I like to think about feelings and emotions as being resourceful or unresourceful.

(12:53) Kim Romain: I know your favorite game. But you just said feeling good.

(13:11) Louise Neil: Yeah, it feels resourceful. It's like, yeah, let's do that. I know.

(13:13) Kim Romain: But that's not the word you used!

(13:16) Louise Neil: I know, I slipped. Because it does feel good.

(13:21) Kim Romain: Yeah, I'm feeling good, feels good. Yeah.

(13:23) Louise Neil: Mm-hmm.

(13:25) Kim Romain: That no, I think what I'm curious about is, is that no always bad?

(13:29) Louise Neil: Absolutely, absolutely not. You know, I recognize that in some past relationships, both romantic and friend relationships, had I voiced that no, things would have been very different. Very different. And for a long time, that's safety to me, is to not speak into the know, right? Just don't, if it feels like, and maybe that's safety, if it doesn't feel safe, if it doesn't feel like it's going to add to the goodness in the world, I don't say it. That's part of my story. And so absolutely, I still check myself, even though you and I, do all kinds of work around language and mindset and somatics and all of those things. I still have that default. It's still programmed in me. And so it does, it does get activated. Can I think my way through it a little bit? I can. But it's, again, it goes back up to the head to think my way to say, can I say this? Well, I need to say this. So let's just see what happens, right? Let's speak into that. No, let's speak into that conflict that I'm so hard trying to avoid. But it has to be processed up here in my head. It doesn't always just, I can't always speak into it. It's not that easy.

(15:06) Kim Romain: No, it's not. I mean, it's definitely not like we have been societally conditioned, lack of better word to, taught, trained to use our brains to logic our way through anything and that that is where our decision making power, prowess comes from. That's what we've been taught. And so to have and I know you use the information that you get, yes, no and otherwise from below your neck. Like, I know you use that information all the time. And yet it sounds like in these sticky, crunchy places where the no might come up, right? Where it's so whoo. I'm feeling the no. You don't really want to deal with that in the moment because you want the time to investigate. You want the time to, to, understand that no or the response to the no more deeply before you agree to the no. That's what I'm hearing.

(16:12) Louise Neil: Yes, absolutely. And in the process of that, it sometimes can mean that I'm pulling back or I'm stepping out, right? Maybe this relationship, this whatever's going on that I haven't known about. And it's a relationship to a person, a place, thing, right? Whatever that is, there's a little bit of avoidance there, right? When I'm not able to process through that feeling and I don't want that feeling then I'm like, "But I don't want to be in that space," or, "I don't want to be in that thing." And it's, it's like, I don't even want to have to explain it. It's like, I just don't want to be here. And so that avoidance thing can also really kick in and, and it doesn't allow me to do any of those things. It doesn't allow me to, I don't want to process that. I'm just like, I'm just done, right? Like, "No thank you."

(17:13) Kim Romain: Yeah. Avoidance is an amazing tactic, right? I mean, when we don't see it, when it's not in front of us, when we're not in the midst of that conversation, if we can step out of it, sure, it absolutely keeps us safe. It keeps us in that place of perceived control.

(17:33) Louise Neil: Mm-hmm. But we're not in control. If it felt good and I was fine with that avoidance tactic and I was fine with all of that, great. Then you're living your best life and please don't change a thing. What happens to me though, is I start to ruminate about it. I start to think, "Should I have said something? Should I do something different? Should I show up differently? Am I really being me? Am I?" Blah, blah, on and on, all of these questions, right? And I start to spiral. And it's like that in itself is an indicator to say, "Hey, time out. I didn't act in alignment with myself." And that's okay. What would alignment look like? And can I get it?

(18:02) Kim Romain: It's spiraling. Tell me what that process looks like.

(18:25) Louise Neil: Alignment or getting it back?

(18:26) Kim Romain: Well, how do you get your alignment back? Let's not go down the full road of like, what is alignment yet, but how do you get back to alignment?

(18:35) Louise Neil: It's getting, so first of all, there's work done to know what my values are and there's work done to have that feeling, like to know what alignment feels like. I can't get back to it if I don't know what it is. And for me, language is a part of that. I want to put some words to, so what wasn't I doing, right? When I'm not in alignment. It's because I didn't act with integrity. I didn't, I didn't show up authentically and I was hiding. I was hiding something. I was scared. Sure. And it's not a tiger. Nobody's going to die. How can I, like, what does integrity look like or what does courage look like or right? And I get to play with those words a little bit to say, "Okay, if, I had done this, would that be in alignment with who I am?" Probably, right? And so now I know maybe if I could relive that moment or have a magical redo, I may do something differently.

(19:40) Kim Romain: So I'm just trying to tie this back in. How does that, so the no causes you, potentially causes you to avoid a situation. And then you go into this almost values analysis.

(19:48) Louise Neil: Yeah. Yeah, a little bit, yeah.

(19:55) Kim Romain: And then you understand what thread to pull you back into alignment in particular with your values.

(20:03) Louise Neil: Yeah, and that doesn't always mean that I'm... It doesn't always mean that I go ahead and redo the conversation. As an example, when I am having a conversation with someone who is close to me and I disagree with what they're saying or there's something, it feels like... "No, I see things differently." I don't always speak up. I don't always speak into that. And it doesn't mean that I'm going to relive that moment or speak into it differently. For me, like, coming back into alignment was like, "Okay, I can either have a magical redo, try the conversation again, or understand that in the next moment, when I have that next conversation, I'm going to do something differently." I don't always have to go back to fix something that hasn't been in alignment. I make a almost a promise to myself to say, "I'm going to try to do something differently and we'll see what happens." But my default is the harmonizer, right? My default is let's all just be kumbaya around the fire and nobody stir the pot. That's a default.

(21:21) Kim Romain: And that's kind of your internal family system, right? It's like, how do we come back to that place of all just sitting around the fire to get even internally? Because that's it's, it's the inter what I'm hearing is it's that internal part that internal dialogue or conversation that you're having with yourself to bring yourself back into harmony so that externally you can do that as well.

(21:46) Louise Neil: Yeah, because like if, if that was the only part that kumbaya part was the only part of me, that then I wouldn't have had that reaction. Like, I wouldn't have had that visceral no. I wouldn't have, I, I would have just like bumped through the conversation and I was like, "Yep, I can't harmonize this. Well, carry on." And it's like, no, there's when we have these these nodes inside us, when we have this, like, there's a, there's a surge of something, right? A chemical reaction that often happens in our bodies. And that to me is like, there's a couple of parts in there all of a sudden are like, "No, no, I'm driving. No, I'm driving. No, I'm driving." Like, there's a conflict there. They are crunchy inside. And so one part of me is like, "Don't say anything." And the other part of me is, "Speak your truth, man. Who cares?" And then all of a sudden, like, who's winning that battle? Well, I don't want to have that battle right now in this moment. And so we all go offline and I carry on.

(22:48) Kim Romain: I love it because it's in many ways so different than my experience, right? So we started this conversation even from that emotional place. Like, how do we process through emotions differently? Human design perspective, I'm emotionally defined, you're not, right? I live with two non-emotionally defined individuals as well. It is different. It is absolutely different. And by the way, a super important channel for me is the channel that connects my emotional center to my throat. So if you don't think I'm speaking from emotions in all that I do when I'm totally in alignment, like that's what I do. It's what I've always done. I, like, I speak from feelings. And so what I need to continue to work on in my life is always the, "Am I speaking from inside of an emotional... Is it taking over the very beginning of the conversation? What was it? Giver tar paper?" Like, when I had, there we go. When I had that visceral reaction, I was in an emotional wave. I have no idea why it caused an emotional wave, but it did. And I spoke from it. Not always the best thing to, now this emotional wave was not one that I thought was going to upset the apple cart. So it was okay to...

(23:53) Louise Neil: Giver tar paper.

(24:12) Kim Romain: To speak into it. But there are times when I'm at the height of it where I've had to learn that that's not the time to speak from it.

(24:20) Louise Neil: Mmm.

(24:21) Kim Romain: So I've processed through what the, you know, the yes, the no, the whatever it is that I'm experiencing that's attached to whatever emotion I'm feeling, because those are two different things, and then have to give myself space to emotionally experience. I had to learn to not go to the thinking place, because the thinking place is where I can spin, and that then feeds my emotional...

(24:40) Louise Neil: Mmm.

(24:47) Kim Romain: Motor, my, right? It turbine starts getting stirred up by my thoughts and then all I want to do is spew all this emotion out of my mouth. That's my experience with my own emotional wave and how emotionally defined. But yeah, I have to speak from the feelings because if I'm not, I'm not speaking my truth.

(25:09) Louise Neil: See, and I'm learning to speak more into that. I'm learning to trust my body. I'm learning to be able to say, "Okay, if it's a no, do I need to know why? I need to logically have more information about what's going on or can I just speak into it?" And that's a place of exploration with me. It's where I explore my friendships. It's where I explore my relationships, right, so that I can say, "I'm speaking into this and let's just see what happens."

(25:13) Kim Romain: Uh-huh.

(25:42) Kim Romain: Yeah, it is, societally, we're not trained, we're not taught how to speak from an emotional space. That's something you do in therapy, right? So I always thought there was something wrong with me because I didn't understand how to not include the feelings in what I'm saying.

(25:52) Louise Neil: Right? Mmm.

(26:03) Kim Romain: So even as a business owner, right? I've worked with several different writing coaches and marketing coaches and whatever, and they want my voice and I'm always speaking from feeling and they're like, "No, you can't do that." And I'm like, "You clearly don't know how to write for me then. You don't know how to help me write better because I have to speak from that." If I'm not speaking from that, again, I have no other natural way for me to get my voice out.

(26:34) Louise Neil: Do you always trust that? Like, do you always trust your body? Do you trust that emotion?

(26:40) Kim Romain: Yeah. Yeah. That's a great question. Yeah, I do. I know when it's not telling me the truth, so that's how I know I can trust it. So it will try to take me down emotional paths that are not quote unquote real, right? Fake news. But I know when it's doing that.

(26:41) Louise Neil: Yeah.

(27:07) Kim Romain: And I know, right, the underbelly of why it's doing that. It's doing that to keep me safe. It thinks it's keeping me safe. But yeah, I deeply trust what my body's telling me, much more than my mind. And that has been something I've had to work towards. Like, I know I have a good mind, right? Like, that's not an issue. I mean, brain fog aside, I know I have a good mind.

(27:31) Louise Neil: You...

(27:32) Kim Romain: And the, but that's something that I worked at. I sure for the most part school was relatively easy for me. It was easy for me to pick up concepts. It was easy for me to learn things, et cetera, et cetera. But the language of my body is something that when I turned it on, it was like, "My God, this is even easier."

(27:57) Louise Neil: Hmm.

(27:57) Kim Romain: It was so much easier for me to understand the language of my body. So the language of your body, so we have feelings. That's like the one that most people tap into. Am I sad? Am I happy? Right? Is this, does this, exactly, exactly. So there's the feeling aspect of it. We have that. But the language of our body, it talks in vibrations. It talks in energy. It talks in stagnation.

(28:09) Louise Neil: Sure, the five top feelings. Yeah.

(28:25) Kim Romain: So if there's something that for the longest time I was like, "I can feel my body from my waist up and be really aware of it. From my waist down, I had almost no connection to it." And I had to really work and still do have to work at connecting the top and the bottom of me energetically. It's because we have these dead zones, right? These cold zones, if we think about going through a house where it's like, what's that? I've not experienced it before. So it speaks through these energetic ways, but our bodies also speak through our gastrointestinal system. It speaks through, right, what is our heart doing in that moment? It speaks through that leaning in, the just natural inclination to lean in or lean back. It speaks in all these different ways that we don't ever think of as a language. Right? There's that thing of body language, but this is like, that's external. It's what is our internal body language?

(29:28) Louise Neil: Yeah. Yes and. You like the yes and? You do so much improv. Yes.

(29:33) Kim Romain: You usually when you say that it means that I went too far.

(29:38) Louise Neil: Well, you know, as you're talking and so it started a little bit when you were talking about like, you know, your brain, your mind, less the brain fog. And then you started to talk about like your heart and, you know, those physical sensations that go on and, you know, figuring out what it is that emotion and what that is. And I feel like for me in in perimenopause and menopause, like, I'm, as much as I wanna trust my body and I wanna trust those things to say, "Okay, well, what's happening?" I don't always anymore. And so here I have this relationship I'm trying to heal with my body, say, "Yeah, absolutely, I wanna trust it. I wanna trust when it's a no to say no. I wanna trust to just speak into that." And like, menopausal rage is a thing. I can get super frustrated for no apparent reason, like none. And I'm left floundering because now I'm having this huge emotion that I feel like I need to speak into. And I really have no idea why. And it's like it goes against like every ounce of my being because I don't speak into my emotions. And yet, the words that are coming out of my face hole are not kind.

(30:58) Kim Romain: You have a bunch of face holes. I'm assuming you made them out. So that's really, so it's, is interesting to me and right. We all have these different experiences with perimenopause or hormones in general, right? We all have these different experiences. And I believe, I deeply believe that even though it feels disconnected from you because all of a sudden this rage is coming out of your face hole, like...

(31:01) Louise Neil: This one, the biggest one.

(31:28) Kim Romain: But that's your body telling you something.

(31:31) Louise Neil: Well, yeah, but it is telling me something that there's like, there's something going on inside that I am disconnected with, for sure. It doesn't mean that I'm angry and full of rage and I'm a horrible person. It means my estrogen is like off the charts currently and it's trying to, my body's just reacting to something that it's not used to.

(31:57) Kim Romain: And you can also still be full of rage. Like, the reality is, is when we peel back the hormones, right? Which I don't know if we'll ever exist without the hormones. So I don't know how you peel them back. But as we start to feel our hormones shift, different parts of ourselves that we haven't given voice to sometimes come forward.

(32:18) Louise Neil: Yes. Yep.

(32:19) Kim Romain: Right? And sure, there's the, there's absolutely the very hardcore scientific reason why that's happening. And somatically, our bodies are telling us there's something you haven't paid attention to. And so now we have to be really loud about it.

(32:36) Louise Neil: Hmm. Yeah, yeah, I love that that reframe around like there's something our body is telling us. Again, we might not know exactly what it is or exactly what's going on, but when we're feeling, well, we're having these feelings, but we're acting in a way that isn't in alignment. Like, let's pay attention to that. And and figure out what that might look like. It feels sometimes like my body is like against me lately. And right, the creaks, the pains, the shoulders, right? I took a cup of coffee out of the microwave today and it felt like it was a hundred pounds. I'm like, "Holy cow, like what's going on?" And so, but knowing that there is something going on is such a big piece of, I don't want to say coming to peace with it, but being able to find a way through. And this is reminding me of a conversation we've had many times before is where I need to put some language to it. I need to be able to know what's happening with some language instead of just saying, "It is what it is." Right?

(33:47) Kim Romain: Right, right. Because the difference there again is that language helps you make sense of it. And for me, I have a visualization or an energetic response to it and I go, "Okay, cool, cool, right?" And that's not always, I do love the hardcore data of like, this is what's going on. Dealing with, I was sharing with you earlier that a loved one in my house was having a pretty major panic attack earlier today. And as I was being a part of what was happening, I was going through the scientific, like, what is physiologically happening in their body that's causing them to respond and react in that way. Now their body was telling them something, right? Their body was giving them information about fear or worry or concern. That turned into a physiological response that then triggered another fear or worry or concern that honestly was distracting them from the original worry because like you with the no, they didn't want to deal with it. So I could sit there and understand scientifically what was happening in their body and at the same time, experience it from an energetic and emotional standpoint. That's because we're really complex and very layered. It's not just about if, do I have a visceral reaction to the no? It's not just about right for you, like, "I had the no and I want to put it away until I have a space to deal with it if I deal with it."

(35:16) Louise Neil: Mm-hmm.

(35:22) Kim Romain: It's not just that because we don't ever deal with anything in pure isolation.

(35:27) Louise Neil: Yeah. Yeah. But it's this coming to understand that our bodies are so full of information. Like, it really does know. I was going to say more than we think.

(35:48) Kim Romain: Well, yes, it's true.

(35:49) Louise Neil: It's true, so many levels, but it really does know. And I think, you know, if anyone is finding themselves in a place where they're unable to really understand what's happening, is maybe that's a way, like a place to explore a little bit deeper or a little bit differently, so that we can tap into that knowledge. Like, this becomes so important. I think especially where we are in this season of our lives, like understanding that and like leveraging the power of our body's experience and using it, using that for, I was going to say for good, but using it for, yeah, and putting that out into the world.

(36:33) Kim Romain: For support.

(36:36) Louise Neil: We don't have to think our way through every single problem. Sometimes we with experience in, I'm gonna use the word like, "elderhood," right? Like, we have that, it's imprinted in our bodies. Let's move that. I mean, maybe I'm gonna say it more, elderhood.

(36:48) Kim Romain: Great. Again, I had a whole hell no with that word. Ew, well, sure you can, just don't point it at me and I'm older than you. So there we have...

(37:02) Louise Neil: Interesting, right? Systems and the words that we use.

(37:07) Kim Romain: They're fascinating. They are fascinating. I mean, I go back to this place that, right, I know that you love to pull apart the words and I love to go there with you. They're wonderful to play with and examine and poke holes in. And we have a whole nother language that's nonverbal that came first. And it's a language that most of us walking around on this earth have no connection to. And the invitation here is to begin a dialogue with your body. The number of people who, when I asked them the first time, I'm like, "What are you experiencing your body in this moment?" They're like, "I feel sad." Nope, that's not experiencing anything in your body. That's you're telling me the emotion that you're feeling. What is the sensation that you're experiencing? Because we're constantly experiencing sensation. But we devalue that because it's not connected to this cognitive place of quote unquote understanding. And yet we know, right, there's whole industries based on how to, just getting you to change your thoughts. So those are malleable and they're not always telling you the truth. So maybe have a backup system.

(38:19) Louise Neil: You... And to really recognize that it is a process and that it's not a switch. It's not something that we can figure out, if I only could just flick the switch. And I think this is where, right, like I told them earlier, like the snake oil salesman's come in where it's like, "Here, I have something that's gonna help you flip the switch and you're just gonna," right? Like a snap of the fingers and you're going to be connected and feeling whole again and moving in a way you never moved before. And it really is a process. And probably for me, I can see this actually being decades from now before I'm understanding my body in a way where I can trust it. Maybe. Right? And it depends. It depends on a lot of things, but I wouldn't be surprised if it took me that long. And that's okay. I'm in here learning more and more about myself and who I am and who I want to be. And that's a fantastic place to be. I don't need to figure it all out because then like, where's the journey? Where's the fun in that road trip? Like there's none.

(39:38) Kim Romain: That would be a really boring road trip because we'd all be on the same one all the time because that's the other thing is sure you can if, if that feels helpful to you to continue to learn the dialogue, learn the language of your body, learn how to trust it and listen to it in new and different ways and there are other people in the world that can help you when you're not as connect, like, right? I am super connected. There are people that are more connected than I am. And there's lots of them that are more connected than I am. And I learned from them how to deepen my experience or not. I go to them and I say, right, "Help me here," because I know that there's something that I could be doing differently. And they show me the way and it doesn't mean I'm going to do it that way on my own or ever again.

(40:07) Louise Neil: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

(40:28) Kim Romain: It's the same way with thoughts. Like we're all on this journey in different ways and that's what's beautiful. Imagine if we were all on the same road trip all the time and it's just the same route. That's suck. I wouldn't want to take that road trip. It is a traffic jam.

(40:39) Louise Neil: Right, that's congestion. That's a traffic jam.

(40:48) Kim Romain: Manhattan at rush hour.

(40:50) Louise Neil: Or the GTA area, Prerif Dostcanadian.

(40:52) Kim Romain: Oh yeah, no, I don't even want to go. That is worse. That is absolutely worse. GTA. Oh my gosh. Yeah.

(40:59) Louise Neil: Yeah. Okay. So what are you taking from this conversation today?

(41:05) Kim Romain: I think it's a lot of that, the, the last part of how different it's just a reminder of how different we are. Right. Because even in the beginning, when, when you ask that question of, "Do you trust your body?" I'm like, "Yeah, yes. Trust it more than I trust my mind most times." How different our experiences are and that neither one of them is quote unquote better or right or whatever, it just is and how cool it is to be able to learn from each other and understand the different types of experiences that we're having. I mean, that just feels so rich to me. So that's what I'm taking with me.

(41:38) Louise Neil: Mm-hmm. Yeah, well, for me, it's just in having this conversation, it brings intentionality back into that, right? And whatever that looks like for anyone, when we're intentional, that's where we make the change. And yeah, that was a good reminder to to be aware. For me, it's an awareness of where my intentional around how am I learning to trust my body and what, what does that... I was going to say, what does that look like? I was going to say, "What does that feel like instead?" Yeah. Thanks. Thanks for the conversation today.

(42:27) Kim Romain: Thank you and thanks for, you know, kicking us off with what, get, say it again. "Giver..." I almost say "get her," get, "giver," "giver tar paper." All right. Yeah. Yeah, I think you made it up.

(42:33) Louise Neil: Giver tar paper. Giver tar paper. Yeah, I tried to Google it, didn't come up. No, I don't think so.

(42:47) Kim Romain: We'll include it in the show notes. We'll figure that out.

(42:49) Louise Neil: Absolutely. What do you have going on lately, Kim? What do you want to share?

(42:54) Kim Romain: All the things, I have all the things going on as I always do. We are experiencing wonderfulness inside the Rising Visionaries. It's a lovely place if you are looking to want to explore what it means to have embodied leadership in your business, in your life, in your organization. And really expanding the heck out of my Strengthscape system right now and really enjoying that. So there'll be links to all those. How about for you?

(42:58) Louise Neil: Thank. I just want to invite people to go over to Substack and check out The Rag, my little newsletter, just about how we're dealing with midlife and menopause and all of those things. And how to not, I don't know, not take it lying down is really about it. How do we be intentional about our self-care during this time?

(43:44) Kim Romain: And I love that every time you say the title of your Substack, you giggle.

(43:48) Louise Neil: I know. I was like, that's pretty cool. I like that. The rec, like, it has so many meanings. Just think about it for a moment. Yeah, it's awesome.

(43:56) Kim Romain: It does. It does. Thanks everyone for tuning in and for being part of this conversation. And we hope that you're having conversations like this on your time.

(44:07) Louise Neil: Absolutely. Take care, everyone. Bye for now.