Courageous Conversations & Culture Change with Dr. Zakiya Mabery

What does real culture change look like in workplaces, communities, and beyond? In this inspiring episode, leadership strategist, neurodiversity expert, and founder of The Oni Project Dr. Zakiya Mabery joins Kim Romain and Louise Neil to explore how courageous conversations, accessibility, and inclusion reshape the way we work and live.

You’ll hear powerful insights on:

• Why accommodations are not special treatment, but human needs
• The hidden cost of masking and the toll it takes on well-being
• How leaders and peers can foster psychological safety
• Practical ways to advocate for yourself and support others
• Simple grounding practices to stay present in tough conversations

If you’ve ever felt the weight of proving you belong or wondered how to create more inclusive spaces, this conversation will remind you that your voice matters and culture shifts when we choose humanity first.

Key moments in this episode:

00:00 – Welcome & Introductions

07:57 – Conversations Leaders Need to Have

09:46 – Accommodations & Hybrid Work

13:11 – Educating Peers on Disability & Inclusion

14:55 – Advocacy Beyond the Workplace

19:19 – Humanity & Responsibility

22:35 – The Burden of Masking

25:15 – Grounding & Coping Practices

30:01 – Handling Bullies & Celebrating Wins

33:40 – Breath & Courageous Conversations

34:59 – Final Highlights & Takeaways

Connect with Dr. Zakiya Mabery

Website: https://www.theoniproject.net/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/zakiyamabery/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thedrzakiya/

YouTube: https://youtube.com/@thezakiyamabery9925

Join Kim at the Drop the Mic UnSummit - Sept 15-18, 2025.
https://dropthemic.teachery.co/buy?a=nYpjqnTp

Join a circle of changemakers committed to leading with purpose, presence and ease inside Kim's Rising Visionaries mentorship program.

Reclaim your career and confidence during midlife through Louise's Rise & Redefine program.

If you’re loving this show, come check out the Feminist Podcasters Collective, where creators like us are uplifting diverse voices and driving meaningful change. If you’re looking for new shows to fill your feed, head to https://feministpodcasterscollective.com to explore everything we have to offer.

Transcript

Episode 177: Courageous Conversations & Culture Change

Guest: Dr. Zakiya Mabery 

Release Date: September 16, 2025

(01:42) Kim Romain: Well, hello, hello, hello, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Empowered and Embodied show. I am one of your co-hosts, as always, Kim Romain, joined by my other co-hosts.

(01:55) Louise: That's me, the other one. I'm Louise, and we have such a juicy, wonderful guest today.

(02:01) Dr. Zakiya Mabery: Hi, I'm Dr. Zakiya Mabery, but just call me Zakiya.

(02:05) Kim Romain: Zakiya, we're so, so glad that you're here. We're gonna let the world know a little bit about you, and then we're gonna dive into today's conversation. So Dr. Mabery is a dynamic leadership strategist, neurodiversity expert, and founder of the Oni Project. With over 20 years of experience spanning federal agencies, corporate, and nonprofit sectors, she champions inclusive leadership and psychological safety. A sought after speaker and media contributor, she's known for transforming culture through innovation, equity, and storytelling. Dr. Mabery is also an active ASSP member and an advocate for mental health in professional spaces. Wow, is that needed? Like, growing up, these words did not go together, and yet, man, they have needed to go together for a really long time, especially now.

(03:00) Dr. Zakiya Mabery: in the times that we're living in, not just here in the US, but internationally, the words need to go together as much as people need to come together.

(03:12) Louise: Yeah, yeah, coming together more than ever. But in such polarized times, it gets really hard.

(03:22) Dr. Zakiya Mabery: I agree. And I think that instead of us just focusing so much on here, what party you're a part of, we need to just focus on how can we bring people together, what's going to benefit the collective, and practicing kindness. I think that's really simple. You know, like when we're kids, what was the phrase? Just be kind to others or something along those lines. If we can just practice that professionally and in our personal lives, I think that we will come a lot further together.

(03:56) Kim Romain: Of course, I thought, "Be kind, rewind."

(03:59) Louise: Hahaha!

(04:00) Dr. Zakiya Mabery: Could you spin some bars?

(04:02) Kim Romain: Zakiya, how did you get here? How did you get to be a person with the experience that you have doing the work that you're doing in the world? Like, how did you get here?

(04:10) Dr. Zakiya Mabery: Okay, when I finished undergraduate, I had a position in which I worked with women who had mental health issues and substance of these issues. I noticed that a lot of my colleagues had fatigue from working in the industry for so long. But this one particular client I was a little concerned about, and I was told that I was being overly zealous. And I needed to step back. And they said, a way that you can remember this, Zakiya, is when you drive to the stop sign, if you're still thinking about clients, you're taking it too personally. But she was continuously on my mind. I went to my director about some things that I was noticing because we were helping them with soft skills and interacting with their children as they go back into society. I felt like I was just being brushed away. Long story short, Rebecca had a weekend pass, and she didn't make it back because her life ended by suicide. I didn't work there much longer. I took it personal. I felt like I could have done more. So, pivoting away from that, I got a job working in EEO, Equal Employment Opportunity, for the federal government. And I was learning it, and I thought it was something that I actually liked because I thought we were there to help the employees when they were having issues as it came related to discrimination. And then I decided that there was that bureaucratic red tape that really bothered me that I couldn't seem to get past that layer. And then also working at the garrison level, that means like the... the base, the army level, and then the Pentagon. There's a lot of disconnect. I worked at both. And what the Pentagon thinks should be going on or what actually is going on is very different when you're at the ground level. And so I talked to a mentor. And she says, Zakiya, have you ever considered working in private sector? And so I applied for Deloitte, and I started to get more tools in my tool belt and to learn more about intersectionality, diversity, inclusion, a whole world in terms that I didn't even know in the little bubble that I was in. And from there, started my own consulting firm, and I've just been growing and scaling ever since.

(06:24) Louise: Yeah, tell me, I'm curious. Tell me about the ONI Project. Tell me about that.

(06:29) Dr. Zakiya Mabery: ONI Project, ONI, first of all, let me tell everyone, ONI, O-N-I, is my middle name, it's Arabic, and it means "desired one." We do speaking engagements internationally and nationally. We do work on strategic planning for organizations. We do a lot of facilitation. And when we talk about facilitation, it's not coming in and just doing a once a year check the box about talking about culture or inclusion. It's really getting in, look at some of your matrix and see where we can actually improve. We do barrier analysis to see where some areas for improvement, but also more importantly, the why. Yes, you may have a lower number of let's just say maybe Hispanics in a particular role, but we want to say why? Is it because of recruiting? You're only recruiting for certain schools? Is it regional? Where do you want to go? So we look at also having benchmarks that we want to meet. Also, looking at some of the policies. So many policies are outdated, especially when you're looking at disability inclusion. Now, saying that you must be detail-oriented for all position descriptions, is that really needed? Or saying that you must be able to lift, what is it, five to 10 pounds? So we have to really go through and look at your position descriptions to see if it's really necessary for that position, because there's a great amount of people who might not fit those specifics, but they could be really great for that position. So those are some of the things that we do at the ONI Project.

(07:57) Kim Romain: With all of the work that you've been doing, both in the past, but particularly now in the time that we are living in and experiencing right now, what are some of the conversations that you think need to be being had that are not being had enough?

(08:14) Dr. Zakiya Mabery: I think we should be talking a little more with senior leaders and middle managers about reasonable accommodations and what does that look like and how it's not actually taking anything necessarily away from the organization. And often reasonable accommodations cost zero. Another thing when we're looking at reasonable accommodations, working remotely or in a hybrid workplace, many times employers think that maybe they can't, the employee is not going to be focused at home. But when we had this, everyone had to pivot during the pandemic, the data does not support that argument. Actually, people work harder at home. I know I've been working remotely off and on since the mid-2000s, like, and for reasonable accommodation reasons. And I actually work harder when I'm at home because A, I want to prove that I'm really getting my work done, but B, because I can focus. I don't have background noise. I don't have someone coming over to my office or my desk and saying, "Excuse me," this, this, this, or the little small talk or walking to the cafeteria. I can really focus on my work. The data supports that that is for most people. And because some people are balancing different things, our parents are in age where maybe we have to maybe check in on them or some people have their parents living with them. And just being able to take care of your family and know that they're taken care of what you can still be productive and work at home. These are all a lot of different reasons why it's effective to have a hybrid or virtual workforce.

(09:46) Kim Romain: It's so interesting because one of my clients, I've recently been working with them about setting up some accommodations. It's a nonprofit organization and it's a peer-run organization. So you're dealing with individuals who have been in and out of jail, who have severe mental illness and addiction issues. And to have each other's backs, it means that you also have to create space for each other to be who you need to be during your recovery process. And yet it's so fascinating that so many of the coworkers feel like, if an accommodation is being made over here, then why can't I have an accommodation over here? What do I... So leadership, I know, struggles with that. And yet we do need to meet, I very much agree, we need to meet our employees where they are as long as the work is being done. So I'm really curious, how this conversation, how can we encourage this conversation around accessibility, around what are the needs of our employees? How do we start to break down those doors and start to have those conversations when there's so much pushback on, "Well, we just need to get things back to normal and get our revenue back on track," blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

(11:02) Dr. Zakiya Mabery: Well, we have to figure out the mission of the organization, whatever the organization is first, and talk about how you can meet or exceed those goals while working remotely. And also, it saves on having commercial property, having to be in a space, right, when you're working from home, because they don't have that oversight to have to pay those things. I think how do we have them? By having courageous conversations. Whatever, let's say the leadership, senior leadership thinks that are some of the barriers, maybe having some sensing sessions or working groups where you can discuss those things and talk about solutions, not just barriers. And then when you have these multiple sensing sessions within the organization, present, analyze the data and present it to leadership so that they can see not just what, let's say, Deloitte is talking about might be best practices, but actually your, your organization, these are what the recommendations from the employees be or the consensual because you have to get buy-in from the inside and also from the top, right? So what better way than to have some, someone come in there and do some sensing sessions and then actually set some goals. Maybe let's say you do it for, let's say, I don't know, two quarters and see what the results would be if it's possible. Because we know that there are some positions that cannot be hybrid, some positions that cannot be remote, but the ones that can, let's see how that would actually affect the bottom line.

(12:30) Louise: Yeah, and I think it's more than the bottom line. It's more than a top-down initiative to be able to really implement these kinds of accessibility programs. Because it's about peers. It's about shoulder to shoulder. Because you can have leaders and you can have organizations say, it's OK for it. Person A and person B because of what they need in that moment. And peers might not see that. And then it becomes this really, now there's tension and crunchiness amongst peers.

(13:11) Dr. Zakiya Mabery: I've been there. I've been there. Yes, you're absolutely right. And when in the federal government, when you enter the reasonable accommodation process, it's only supposed to be on a need to know basis. But I distinctly remember a colleague asking me, "Well, why do you need," at that time I was having physical disabilities, "why do you need a scooter?" And I was like, "It's my feet." "Oh, so do you have this, you have that?" So we need to have conversations and also work education around the peers understanding what disability looks like, understanding that some people feel comfortable talking about it, some people do not, and also educating them on what it may look like for other people because someone who has PTSD may look very different from a wheelchair user or someone who may have fibromyalgia or cancer. So we need to educate around disability as a whole, I believe, and that what some of those potential reasonable accommodations may be. And that's just not, like I just said, Louise, not just for leadership, but for the workforce in general. So they won't be maybe so much stigma associated or whispering or questions or things of that sort. I just think that more awareness and education needs to be done.

(14:26) Louise: Yeah, absolutely. So I'm in the space of menopause inclusion at work. And how do we actually start as middle-aged and perimenopausal women, how do we actually start to advocate for some of those accommodations that we might need for ourselves when we don't even talk about that word at all in the workplace and how it can actually be super impactful? And we're not just talking about like physical, right? We're talking about like all of these like these emotional things that come on and these these mental things that happen to us as women as we go through this, but in all kinds of places and spaces, right? We're not we're not just talking about a disability that that is visible or that you can see, we're talking about, right, people walk around with with these traumas that are happening too, and we shouldn't have to share everything that we're not comfortable in sharing. But at the same time, I think there needs to be a little bit of transparency around this idea of accommodation isn't, I'm going to use air quotes, not special treatment. Because that's how it's perceived a lot in workplaces.

(15:38) Dr. Zakiya Mabery: Right. It is, and not just workplaces in some of the professional organizations that we're a part of as well. And I'm saying that from experience. I will remember distinctly in this one particular organization, I had reconstruction on my right foot. So I had several procedures at one time and I'm still healing and this took place in 2019. This event that I'm talking about was 2020 and they wanted women to wear uniform, attire, which is understandable. Heels. I can't wear heels. Can't wear heels anymore. And then the shoes that I had on, it was throbbing so bad that I took my shoes off. And I came over and this woman, I'm a grown woman now. I mean, real grown. I may look younger than I really am. Came over, she chest ties me. And I'm like, I cannot walk in a shoe. My foot is throbbing. So I say that to say, they never asked me, did I need reasonable accommodations through this process or for this event. A lot of people think about just at work. It's not even this now in a particular situation, I'm going through something and I feel like, why me Lord, do I always have to be the one to come in here and educate someone and be the advocate? But if it's not me, then who? Who's going to do it? And I, I, apparently this is my assignment. This is my ministry. So I will be that person, whether it's in my church, in these other organizations saying, "Hey, have you considered asking people do they have a reasonable accommodation?" And I feel that will be through some courageous conversations. And then we have to have some, "Hey, you give this a little bit and I give this a little bit." It doesn't have to be totally Zakiya's way or Louise's way, but where we can all function at a level. Sometimes it's just simply by asking questions. And if you're in a space where you feel safe enough, because I don't know if we ever feel safe outside of the four walls of our homes, to have the conversation. Because sometimes people don't take feedback very well. You read my bio, you did research on me, so you see that I am neurodiverse. And so at this meeting in January, I was asking an individual about where, someone was kept asking me where to take pictures for this event. And I was supposed to be in charge of that. So I finally interrupted a leader and said, "Excuse me, where are you gonna want the pictures taken?" She looked at me as if I said, called her a bad name. "How dare you ask me about pictures right now? I don't care about pictures." And so I walked away, talked to myself, "Zakiya keep it in, keep it in," because I had to speak at that event. After the event, I went to my car and cried because I felt so little in that moment that she, A, would talk to me in such a tone and B, all I asked was what was her preference and where to take the pictures. That event was a Saturday. That Sunday, we had a conversation. I let her know how what she said to me made me feel and she basically doubled down and said, "That's my personality, deal with it and it's caused me to be successful thus far in my career." That was her stance. Not, "I apologize, I had a lot on my mind," or any of that. So it wasn't so much what she said and how she made me feel at that moment, it was how she handled it. If someone were to come to me and say, "Well, Zakiya, you're kind of snappy," I need to be able to have an emotional intelligence enough to say, "You know what, I apologize and I will definitely try not to let that happen." So I think there's a lot of different variables going on here when we're talking about people in their behaviors and taking responsibility and being open to hear, having the mindset to a different perspective.

(19:19) Kim Romain: And here, I just want to simplify that all down and say, people need to treat each other like grown-ass adults, take responsibility for their own stuff, and see the humanity in each other.

(19:26) Dr. Zakiya Mabery: 100%. Yes. That's the part of humanity in each other, yes.

(19:36) Kim Romain: Because even talking about reasonable accommodations, and I get it, I used to be an attorney, right? All the things. Huge proponent of reasonable accommodations. And we shouldn't live in a society that we need them. Right? Like, I mean, I'm sitting here listening, I'm saying, yes, absolutely. There's physical stuff, there's mental health stuff, there's...

(19:43) Dr. Zakiya Mabery: That would be the goal. That would be ideal. Yes.

(20:01) Kim Romain: energetic stuff, all the things. There's parental stuff. There's bereavement stuff. There's, right? I mean, I remember when I was going through fertility treatments, raising a, you know, it was a $25 million capital campaign that I was running. And I ran it. Not a single person knew that I was going through fertility treatments for the two and a half years that I was running. And let me tell you, my body was torn up during that time. My emotions were torn up during that time. I went through eight miscarriages during that time. And those are the things that we're not talking, like we're not talking about the fact that we can't even get over the fact that somebody who is asking for a reasonable accommodation for either a physical or a mental health accommodation. Right? For something that is making it hard for them to do what is quote unquote expected of them, let alone thinking about the rest of our humanity. Right? We're expected to, whether it's physically or not, show up at our work for eight to 10 hours a day, and then you go deal with the rest of your life on your time. No!

(21:15) Dr. Zakiya Mabery: It doesn't make sense. Yes, I agree 100%. And having EAP for emergencies, that doesn't really cut the bill. That's like a band-aid, like on a big dash. It doesn't really help. We're glad it's there, but it's not effective 100%. So yes, I agree with you, Kim.

(21:16) Kim Romain: We're done with this.

(21:32) Kim Romain: Yeah. I remember a conversation Louise and I were having about putting a bandaid on a severed arm. That's exactly what it is.

(21:44) Louise: Yeah, yeah, it's so interesting even just that word, right? Reasonable accommodation. It's like, I just want to be able to do my best and to show up. Like, that's all we want, right? Is just to be able to show up and be able to do my best. And I might need different things than Kim or you, right? Like, and it's so frustrating because what we're talking about is now we have this cognitive load on ourselves because now we have to ask for it. Now we have to, right, say, then it makes us like we're worried, we're concerned, right? Now we feel less than because we have to ask for an accommodation in a system that just doesn't fit us. Like that's, that's more than a severed arm and a bandaid.

(22:35) Dr. Zakiya Mabery: It really is. Man. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes. And we have to mask ourselves also while we're trying to prove it.

(22:35) Kim Romain: and not just ask, prove.

(22:38) Louise: Prove it. Yeah, yeah. 100%. Prove it. Yes.

(22:40) Kim Romain: Prove you need this.

(22:48) Kim Romain: Yeah. Talk about that a little bit more because I think that that's a really important component here. I mean, I know, right? I just explained that I showed up, nobody knew what was happening. But let's talk a little bit about that masking because that is part of the cognitive load that Louise is talking about.

(23:04) Dr. Zakiya Mabery: Yes, masking for me looks like putting a smile on my face, even though I may be emotionally not in my best place, showing up for a meeting, whether it's virtually or in person or if I'm going in person. "How you doing?" Well, we always say, "I'm doing great. I'm doing fine." Not, "My goodness, you don't understand what it took to peel myself out the bed, get into the shower, because I hadn't showered in two days because I was in a big crying thinking about this or that or I was feeling still stressed." That's masking. Trying to pull it together to say the right words to make sure especially if you're working with people like the individual I described in January that you don't know what might set them off because they're just not a very kind person. Making sure that you are just checking all the things between whichever group you're in that you're masking for. "Okay, let me take this mask off and put this one on." Put that down now. Put this one. I just get, I get tired of it. That's one of the reasons why I left the federal government. That's why I left private sector. And that's why I have my own business now, but not saying that I still don't have to mask. I do. I just do it less. And I feel that because when I'm doing shorter engagements, I'm having to do client facing less. It's a lot of behind the scenes, designing curriculum, things of that nature. So I think being able to choose where and how I show up, where I could be my authentic self has been very beneficial for my mental health and my physical health. My blood pressure has lowered. So thank you. And just trying to not be around people who snatch my energy. I want to be around those who zap my energy, like in a good way.

(24:49) Kim Romain: Yeah, not the energy vampires that are going to suck it all away. Yeah, it's bad, man. It's bad.

(24:51) Dr. Zakiya Mabery: Hmm, yeah, they drain you.

(24:56) Louise: So what do we do when we can't be in those places? What do we do when we do have to show up at work and it's not, it doesn't feel so great? Like, so what do we do when we're working with non-adults who don't take responsibility for their actions? Like, what do we do?

(25:15) Dr. Zakiya Mabery: You have to, we have to find ways to put you in your most ideal space mentally. For me, it's the beach. I love the beach. I'm a beach bum. And so when I used to have an office, I used to have a painting on my wall that was the beach with waves and I would put on music or sounds that sounded like the beach and it smelled great. I can't do it all the time. So what I do sometimes is go to an app on my phone and do those things to get me in the right head space before I have to interact with those individuals or that particular individual. I pray before I have to go talk to her, I can tell you that. And you have to think it's not you, it's that individual. You have to think about what you bring to the table. I just try to focus on more positive things, but not being in La La Land and still be grounded in reality. But just think about what my expertise is for whatever situation and bring that in. If I kind of prepare in advance about potential questions that may be asked or scenarios for me with my anxiety, that helps a lot. So being prepared, and also having some grounding techniques that you can utilize when you're in these stressful situations, I have found to be very helpful.

(26:38) Kim Romain: So what I just heard you describe is actually what I teach.

(26:41) Dr. Zakiya Mabery: You.

(26:42) Kim Romain: Oh, it fits right in. So I use the word Ease a lot and it's actually an acronym. So it's E-A-S-E, right? So it's embodied. And you talked about that grounding place, grounding, right? Looking at the picture, listening to the sounds, bringing it back to your body so that you can feel grounded. I mean, I'm sitting here with a piece of selenite because it helps me stay grounded so I can stay really present even when the world is going on around me. So that place of, right, our place of embodiment. You also talked about alignment. That alignment is knowing yourself, right? It's knowing I need to prepare ahead of time. It's coming back to sovereignty. It's coming back to what do I need? What does Zakiya need? What does Louise need? What does Kim need before we go into any situation, right? And then you can expand yourself out into the world. So I think I love everything that you shared. And I think that Louise, to your question, we do need to take care of ourselves and we need to know ourselves well enough. Better than a little, better than just a tiny little bit. We need to know ourselves so that we can understand what we need. And to do that, we need to actually feel ourselves. And so how do we go back into those conversations? If grounding, whatever method of grounding, whatever method of getting back into our bodies, that's where we start. 100% agree with that. And from there, it's it's. We don't want to encourage putting the mask back on because that's super easy to do, right? To switch into a different persona. And instead of putting a mask on, it's how can I step into this fully as myself, open to what this is going to bring, which means that I'm not carrying my backpack of baggage with me, right? My backpack of issues with me into that situation. It's not easy. It means you have to slow down.

(28:35) Louise: Yeah. Yeah. And I think there's a little bit too to be said. I know with with some of the folks that I work with, it's very much like we, when we're wearing a mask, obviously we're not in touch with ourselves. Like we don't know who we are. And we also lose a connection with our environment and with the people in it. And we can start to create some alternate realities about what's going on in that, right? And we do that for all kinds of reasons, right? Especially when we want to be protected and we have things going on that we feel like we need to protect ourselves on. And when we lose that connection, we start to create this alternate reality. And then we can lose touch with actually what is going on and how to step into those conversations. We lose it and yeah. So it's both, right? We talk about embodiment and empowerment. Like there's some action to take from that. To be, yeah, and to be able to have some conversations, to be able to see what really is going on. You get to know real fast if you're dealing with a bully or if you're dealing with somebody who is supportive. But we make up these stories often about what someone is like because we're disconnected from ourselves and we're disconnected from.

(29:56) Kim Romain: And all I saw going through my head was, "And like, how many timelines can you go to in a single day?"

(30:01) Dr. Zakiya Mabery: I think you made up a good point, Louise, about being able to identify with who you're dealing with, a kind adult or a bully, because we still have to sometimes deal with the bully. And you just have to have a game plan. Are we playing chess, checkers, or what's going to work for you to keep you, me safe when you're having to have these interactions with that type of individual? Because we all handle stress at a different level, but you need, I'm talking to myself when I'm saying this, I need to be able to handle the bully in a way that I still don't leave the the interaction feeling overwhelmed or like I was defeated and there is a way to do that and it goes back to what you were saying Kim working on those steps about what I can be in control of and that's only me and my emotions and I do feel much prouder of myself when I have those uncomfortable situations or conversations and emotionally I walk away saying, my voice didn't get, you have a very soothing voice by the way, Kim. And I talk very loud, especially when I'm passionate, but when I try to get upset, I learned this a long time ago, talk lower, so that someone can focus in on the words that I'm saying. And when I practice all my skills, I have to buy myself like a frappuccino from Starbucks because I'm so proud of myself. And I'm sharing this with all of you to say the same things. Notice how you're showing up in situations. If there's anything that you can do to improve on, try it the next time. We're not gonna always get it right, but practice it and try it the next time. And you might have to make some tweaks along the way, but try to continue to work on how you show up because you have no control of how someone else shows up.

(31:46) Louise: Yeah. And to celebrate that, to celebrate how you're showing up. I love that frappuccino. I remember so many times having tough conversations at work and then like just turning the corner of the hallway or whatever. And then just like, you know, you do like the double fist pumping. You're like, "Yeah, I just just fucking nailed it." Like I nailed it. Right. I stayed calm. I did not cry. I got my point across. My voice didn't crackle. I was me.

(32:17) Kim Romain: I turn beet red and there's nothing I can do about it, right? It's like we can hold back the tears sometimes, sometimes we can't, but I can't do anything about the fact that my skin flushes and gets really hot and really red. And the minute I feel it, I notice that I start to try and put a mask on, still to this day, like all this, and I still try and put a mask on and I try to like, ooh, and the times that I don't, the times that I breathe and I acknowledge it and I go, "Ooh, wow, I'm feeling something." I don't have to tell you what I'm feeling. I don't have to tell you what I think about the bullshit you just said. All I have to do is say, "I'm feeling something." And that's enough for me to get back into my body, to get back into my presence so that I can complete whatever that challenging conversation is. Because I will tell you, I'm one of, like, when I look at my positive intelligence saboteurs, avoidance is up there, because it's really easy for me to be like, "That's going to be tough. I don't want to do it." And putting myself into these courageous conversations, putting myself into positions where I know I'm going to be uncomfortable and practicing it has been really life-changing for me to be able to take steps in my life, even outside of courageous conversations. It adds to it.

(33:40) Dr. Zakiya Mabery: Breath is so important. So even if you're giving a presentation and you forget the word that you're gonna say, you can take a breath. If someone says something and you're trying to figure out how to react, breath is so important. It's soothing. It really is, yes.

(33:58) Louise: Yeah, that's so powerful. And to have these courageous conversations, not just with the person that's like getting under your skin, but having these crazy courageous conversations about what you need, because I'm to tie it back. Because sometimes the courageous conversation that you're having is the one with yourself.

(34:16) Dr. Zakiya Mabery: Yes, absolutely. Yes. Yes. And sometimes it stings. And sometimes writing these down so you can go back and reflect on it later is I have found to be helpful. Journaling, writing. Sometimes some people think that I don't have time to do all that, even if it's a couple of words, even if it's what you're thankful for. And coming back and reading it maybe two months later when you're going through a rough patch, you're like, "Wow." That day I could only write three things and then seeing where you are at the present day, it is helpful being able to look at your growth, I found to be very, very refreshing.

(34:53) Kim Romain: Again, another celebration point, right? Yeah, yeah.

(34:54) Dr. Zakiya Mabery: Another celebration point. My hips don't need any more frappuccinos.

(34:59) Kim Romain: I love it. We have gone on such a beautiful journey in this conversation from starting with this place of reasonable accommodation, right? What are the conversations that we're needing to be having? We need to be having conversations where we're asking, where we're sharing, where we're saying what we need. But I'd love if we could kind of give our highlights, each of us give a highlight from this conversation that we want our listeners to take away with.

(35:27) Dr. Zakiya Mabery: Sounds good. I would say one of my highlights from this conversation is that you just brought about was the breathing. I've heard about this also, of course, talked about in therapy many times and sometimes I forget, but thank you for reminding me the breath is so important and you can use it at any given time. Taking a deep breath is cleansing and it's beneficial.

(35:51) Louise: Yeah, yeah. When we can, like the work that we do in that, right, and coming back to ourselves and understanding who we are and what we need and being able to actually take some action on that, be able to have, right, a courageous conversation. It's probably not as tough as you think it's gonna be, but we need to be taking action. We need to be asking for what we need. Calling it a reasonable accommodation or not, it's a need for us. We need to be talking about it. We need to be asking for those things.

(36:26) Kim Romain: And for me, it's start the conversation with yourself because so often we don't actually know what we need to ask for or what we want to ask for because we don't know because we haven't spent the time having the conversation with ourselves. What is it that I actually need? And being really clear on that.

(36:42) Louise: I love this conversation today. Absolutely. Zakiya, when people want to have more conversations like this with you, where can they find you?

(36:52) Dr. Zakiya Mabery: You can find me on LinkedIn, which is my favorite, under Zakiya Mabry. And you can find me on Facebook, Instagram, all the things. But I'll also give you my digital business card that you can share with this.

(37:07) Louise: Yeah, yeah. And you have something coming out into the world. Tell us more. Tell us more.

(37:12) Dr. Zakiya Mabery: I have a book coming this fall. I'm so excited. I've been an author before, but a contributing author to a book. This is my baby, my first book by myself that's being published. And it's about living out loud and it's going to help individuals who have dealt with culture issues. Like I said, whether it's in work, the organizations that you're a part of, and how to navigate sometimes what may appear as toxic environments. And just talking about overall improving organizational culture. There are over 30 exercises that you can utilize either independently or with a group. And hopefully, you will use it as a tool to improve your organizational culture.

(37:55) Kim Romain: Good stuff, good, good stuff. Can't wait to take a look at that. Yay. Well, we will include all the goodies in the show notes. Thank you so much for being with us today and having this conversation.

(38:06) Louise: Yeah, I loved it. Thank you, listener, for joining. Take care. Bye for now.